I was reading this article by my fellow YTTH author Timmah.
If I could, I would like to offer another perspective from a YTTH author.
I disagree with Timmah's assessment.
First of all, without going into all the why's, how's and wherefores, I should state for the record that I do NOT believe DoM's ability will affect units embarked, nor do I believe it will allow cover saves. YMMV. But even if it turns out to affect vehicles, I believe that 5 months from now DoM will be in the same category as Nob Bikers and Lash Princes: uber badass units which, once people learned their counter, were easily dismounted from their place of glory.
Now, is DoM useless? Obviously not. It's benefits have been described ad nauseum.
But is it mandatory? No. Is it counterable? Yes.
If we could identify one named unit which I believe will stand the test of time and tournament, and will end up being more of a "standard" choice in Nid lists (I don't think any of the more recent, better designed codices have any true 'mandatory' choices) it is Deathleaper.
Deathleaper, while less flashy and less killy, is more useful. He is more survivable. He will win more games for you.
Deathleaper starts affecting your enemy from turn one. Don't underestimate the drag on your opponent's army that D3 leadership loss will produce. On a psyker, that weight is a heavy one, reducing their effectiveness offensively and sometimes defensively. With all the Psykers in the Nid army, Deathleaper is a force multiplier.
Deathleaper rewards savvy tacticians. You can place him such that he provides a legitimate threat for the next turn, forcing your opponent to respond, only to pull him off the table and not allow your opponent to kill him. Or, you can commit when the time is right and take out a critical unit.
So there it is, my counterpoint. I think DoM is being overhyped mainly because of the rules debate. Once the debate is settled by GW, I suspect people will realize the DoM is more exciting on the interwebs than on the tabletop.
Home »Unlabelled » Taking Deathleaper over DoM?: It'll be more common than you might think.
Tuesday, February 09, 2010
Taking Deathleaper over DoM?: It'll be more common than you might think.
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Purgatus
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31 comments:
Exactly my thoughts on the matter. Deathleaper is great in the long run while Doom will be amazing in the next few weeks.
Good point Purgatus. When I first read the Doom of Malaysia's entry, I saw it as just another gimmick unit that will be whooped about and then thrown away. But now people are questioning the entire system the game has been running on for quite some time and really expect to be right. Stop trying to do things with rules it does not explicitly say you can do. Something as new as hurting units in transports, should specify it does so.(i.e. Parasite).
But all this Doom of Malaysia talk is putting me to sleep. Out with the Nids, in with the BLOOD!!
I agree. Even WITH DoM affecting units in vehicles (should GW deem it so), I much prefer Deathleaper's utility/resilience to the overall game over DoM's killy power. The ability to force your opponent to react to you and restrict their pre-game battle plans from the get go is a much bigger advantage in my opinion.
<span>"Doom of Malaysia" </span>
I lol'd
I agree with your rules assessment... although let's wait and see since GW FAQs are idiosyncratic.
What seperates DOM from units like Nob bikers is the cost. 140 points for DOM and a slightly shooty mycetic pod is not in the same category as 400-600 points for the bikers, making it a far less risky investment. I still think Lash princes are strong but the Chaos codex itself is weak, while DOM works well with the versatile and resilient Nid Dex.
He could prove to be very survivable depending on the circumstances, since he can heal / gain wounds better than any other unit in the history of the game. The main threat is from instant death weapons, anything strength 8-10 will one-shot this bug one out of three times on average.
I really can't comment on Deathleaper too much except that he looks very useful for last minute objective contesting.
I think I'm going to go work on my sculpted Doom Of Malarky now...
Oh while we are on the subject of DOM, what do you think of the potential synergy of spammed Broodlords, DOM, and two Hive Tyrants with The Horror and Psychic Scream? It is kind of a one trick pony although you can still shred in hand to hand. If you could get a lot of Auras of Despair stacking it would be really lethal.
Potentially it would be very nasty. It all falls apart if the Doom dies though.
If you are in the habit of making gambles like that you probably are involved in investment banking...
Some one just dont care about your -D3 ld (ie runic weapon)and there could also be multiple psychic charactors on board, and what happens when you roll 1 with the D3? (33%chance) even with a full 3 I cant see it shut down others completely ,they still got 50% chance to pass, its just another psychic hood at best (and only function on one model) , this doesnt mean -D3 ld is nothing ,but it's sth you cant rely on ,if it cant be rely on then it is not a good tournament option. plus it makes itself more target priority , you have to think more before place it ,mostly it will do nothing ,because you dont want to lose it, and the mind to protect it will disrupt you more than the enemy.
I think I'm gonna have to disagree with both of you guys. I see both Deathleaper and DoM as both fun and flavorful options to a Tyranid army, and not de facto army choices. I'm not knocking either unit, as I actually think they're both more effective than many ppl are giving them credit...however, they have very specific abilities, and will not fit several types of Tyranid army well.
First it was "Tervigons are mandatory,"
then it was "Deathleaper is mandatory,"
then "Hive Guard is...,"
now it's "DoM is..."
Truth is, with the multitude of choices, there really isn't a mandatory choice.
If we're going to say a "standard" choice, as Purgatus wrote, I don't think it's really even a close competition here...for me, it's the Tyranid Prime.
The Primes do everything well, they provide a force-multiplier to warriors, in addition to almost every elite selection, and can slough off S8-9 wounds for multiwound T4 creatures...oh, and they cost less than 100 points, and kick ass in CC. They're also synapse creatures...and they're T5...and they're not MCs...
The list goes on and on. Of all the lists I've written since my first few tester games with the codex, it's the Tyranid Prime that's the constant thread. Every other unit(ESPECIALLY DL and DoM) are really only complimentary in certain situations...the Prime compliments literally EVERYTHING.
What do you think will happen if someone grabs 2 tyranid primes and makes a super unit joining them in with the DoM ? Is that a viable option to make the DoM both deadly and resilient ?
The whole 'auto include' concept is flawed. When the codex came out I felt that theren were two units that would be featured in my lists ...
HG and TFexes
Now once you make this type of decision you are 'boxing in' your potential lists. I want Tervigon support for these units. I want VThropes for my walking pahalanx. So my list begins to build itself once I deem a few squads 'mandatory'. Of course this is a flawed concept. There are a slew of competitive Nid builds out there.
I happen to include DoM in my list. I like what he brings to the table. I don't 'rely' on DoM and would not rely on a Deathleaper either. I want enough built in redundancy that losing a unit does not lose me the game. There are going to be counters for whatever you field. Isn't this site about building lists that can handle anything?
You can still build a competitive army from the ground up. You just need to save 1 elite spot and about 100 pts. Very doable in most armies.
Its just, these units will more than likely provide more disruption and potential than anything else you throw in there.
<span><span>@Michał Jóźwiak</span><span></span><img></img></span> the answer is no, read again BGB page48.
<span><span><span>Michał Jóźwiak:</span></span> the answer is no, read again BGB page48.</span>
<span>"I see both Deathleaper and DoM as both fun and flavorful options to a Tyranid army, and not de facto army choices"</span>
Interesting, let's see what I said about this in my article:
"If we could identify one named unit which I believe will stand the test of time and tournament, and will end up being more of a "standard" choice in Nid lists (I don't think any of the more recent, better designed codices have any true 'mandatory' choices) it is Deathleaper."
So, it looks like we are in HEATED agreement!
DoM is another reason for people to mech up. I am firmly in the "doesn't work on embarked units and allows no cover" camp, otherwise it's kinda stupid. It will fuck up foot armies, but it's on a fragile platform and not as effective against mech (hopefully).
They're both handy units well worth the Elite slot, but neither are an auto-in. Since pretty much everything in the book is useful, we have to make more hard choices to build the right army. The less auto-ins we have the better.
<p><span>Just to clarify, let me restate my point simply:</span>
</p><p><span> </span>
</p><p><span>-New codexes don’t have ‘mandatory’ units, because they are well designed (with lots of viable builds). </span>
</p><p><span> </span>
</p><p><span>-Of the named units in C:T, I think Deathleaper is better than DoM.</span>
</p><p><span> </span>
</p><p><span>-Because of this, I expect Deathleaper to be more of a ‘standard’ choice than DoM in competitive play. (Which means it will happen more frequently, not that it is “required”).</span>
</p><p><span> </span>
</p><p><span>-Standard =/= Mandatory or “Auto-in.”</span></p>
DoM + Deathleaper = WIN :D
<span>"DoM + Deathleaper = WIN :D"</span>
There is no way I would use two elite spots for them. I can barely fit one of them in without scarificing a key component of my list.
Heated agreement...lol.
Though rule wise, DoM does effect units in vehicles, I can easily see that being changed in the FAQ for balancing issues, and to stop mech spammers from crying.
I don't even bother using DoM, I tried it, it just doesn't fit my style.
What I have found is that I really like Deathleaper. Though the amount is not reliable, the -Ld is always there when he is alive. What I do is simply deploy him in a random corner if need be, or somewhere just off to the side. Not only does he get a good cover save, but cannot be shot at from further than 18". Just keep him alive for his bonuses, then wisk him away and redeploy to contest objectives on turn five.
And he even works well with a venomthrope. Have him give a cover save to the venomthrope, and they both get a 4+ save, plus the assault through terrain rules works well.
DoM is simply a glass cannon that 99% of the time you get to shoot it off before your opponent gets to properly react to it. It is cheap, very effective at what it does, and is a must kill for your opponent. I mean seriously this thing has the potential rip apart a GKT squad the turn it comes in!
Deathleaper nerfs a psyker/psi-hood at best and trys to be "scary".
Also comparing it to NobBikers/Lash is kinda a bad way to analyze it as those are complete army builds and DoM can be put into almost every army with little backup.
Lash is a complete army build, eh? :D
Anyways, the thing with analogies, is that usually within the analogy it is identified exactly HOW the two things are similar. The clue is usually how it is set up like
Stelek is a lot like Michael Jackson: You either love him or hate him.
Does that mean I called Stelek a pedophile? No.
Now I realize not everyone has studied for the LSATs, but at least try and respond to the actual point made instead of just randomly putting your own arguments in my mouth.
Now, the point I ACTUALLY made was, that like Nob Bikers and Lash, there are clear counters to otherwise very scary units. Those counters, once identified, rendered those units very manageable.
And seriously, DoM has the potential to decimate a GKT squad the turn it arrives? That's supposed to scare me?
Can you please elaborate on how to counter DOM? I mean besides the obvious "shoot it with STR 8!"
If you're well mech'ed up or otherwise fast. Try to spread yourself if you know its coming, so as to minimize the number of squads it can effect with the Leech. Then react accordingly with the appropriate weapons.
The usual methods of DS defense work fine, blocking areas up, fielding Mystics (they'd have a field day with him). Once he's down, it's 2 T4 wounds with a 3+ save, bolters can down that.
<span>"Can you please elaborate on how to counter DOM?"</span>
Well if the power eventually hurts units in transports, which I do not believe it will for simplicity's sake, then I would just counter it with vehicle units. I run Blood Angels with 3xDreads 3xBaals and 3xSpeeders (all short range oriented) and if I wish I can use those hulls to protest my transports from being with 6" of the DoM.
For other armies it may not be so easy, but Imperial Armies have access to Mystics. And if you do not have an easy counter then just make sure your transports are not stacked together. Let the DoM drop and only attempt to affect one unit. Sucks but then you kill the pony and the trick is gone.
If you have a dread, tying it up with that is a good bet while moving everything else away. Assuming it's not St 10 that is...
Death leaper´s -d3 ld ability combined with shadow in the warp= pewn psykers. Also about the all good nid elites, what do you think about them as attackers in planet strike. Also why do you prefer hive guards over zoans? Also Zoans+DoM= death infantry
I don't prefer HG to Zoanthropes. Each of them is important in a different army build.
Wait...how did my name + pedo end up in the same sentence? Seriously? I'm MJ, or Jesus? What is with you weirdos. =|
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