I have been playing 40k for almost 2 months, and I really love my
Vulkan list. I can easily steamroll my friends(who unlike me, didn't
drop $500 on picking up a bunch of used space marine collections at
quarter retail prices) with it, but I still have trouble against some
of the more competitive players at the store near me in Houston(who
play nidzilla, nob bikers, etc). I am interested in both improvements
to the list, and better tactics.
The way I play it now, is that if I get first turn I move flat out
with the landspeeders, and use them to grant additional cover to the
rhinos and dreadnoughts(which I run, hopefully next to terrain cover.)
Then, second turn, the landspeeders move 12 and shoot melta while the
rhinos pop smoke and grant cover to the dreads, which continue to run.
Third turn everything starts spamming melta and heavy flamers, and the
dreads charge targets of opportunity. If I get second turn I either
reserve the landspeeders for deepstrike, or (preferably) hide them
completely behind cover of some sort with as much of the rest of my
army as I can fit, and then play as normal.
I like putting a dread in a drop pod sometimes, but it seems like such
a huge liability in killpoint games(which we seem to roll an
inordinate number of for some reason.) The dread can usually kill a
unit if I place it well, but then it, and the drop pod, get blown up,
putting me behind in kill points.
I have a lrr and assault terminators, but I really hesitate to use
them in the 1500 point games we usually play. When I play 2000 I like
to put them in, and then a couple of powerfists on the tac squads,
which brings me right up to 2000.
Flame-broiled Spam and Cheese - Space Marines: Codex Army
1 Forgefather Vulkan He'stan (HQ) @ 190 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Kesare's Mantle; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades
#Gauntlet of The Forge [0]
#Spear of Vulkan [0]
#Digital Weapons [0]
1 Dreadnought (Elites) @ 115 Pts
Front Armour: 12; Side Armour: 12; Rear Armour: 10; Dread. CC Weapon;
Heavy Flamer; Multi-Melta
#Smoke Launchers [0]
#Searchlight [0]
1 Dreadnought (Elites) @ 115 Pts
Front Armour: 12; Side Armour: 12; Rear Armour: 10; Dread. CC Weapon;
Heavy Flamer; Multi-Melta
#Smoke Launchers [0]
#Searchlight [0]
1 Dreadnought (Elites) @ 115 Pts
Front Armour: 12; Side Armour: 12; Rear Armour: 10; Dread. CC Weapon;
Heavy Flamer; Multi-Melta
#Smoke Launchers [0]
#Searchlight [0]
9 Tactical Squad (Troops) @ 205 Pts
Combat Squads; Bolt Pistol (x9); Bolter (x7); Multi-Melta (x1); Flamer;
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades
1 Space Marine Sergeant @ [26] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Bolter; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades
1 Rhino @ [35] Pts
Storm Bolter
#Searchlight [0]
#Smoke Launchers [0]
9 Tactical Squad (Troops) @ 205 Pts
Combat Squads; Bolt Pistol (x9); Bolter (x7); Multi-Melta (x1); Flamer;
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades
1 Space Marine Sergeant @ [26] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Bolter; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades
1 Rhino @ [35] Pts
Storm Bolter
#Searchlight [0]
#Smoke Launchers [0]
9 Tactical Squad (Troops) @ 205 Pts
Combat Squads; Bolt Pistol (x9); Bolter (x7); Multi-Melta (x1); Flamer;
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades
1 Space Marine Sergeant @ [26] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Bolter; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades
1 Rhino @ [35] Pts
Storm Bolter
#Searchlight [0]
#Smoke Launchers [0]
0 Land Speeder Squadron (Fast Attack) @ 140 Pts
1 Land Speeder Tornado @ [70] Pts
Multi-Melta; Heavy Flamer
1 Land Speeder Tornado #1 @ [70] Pts
Multi-Melta; Heavy Flamer
0 Land Speeder Squadron (Fast Attack) @ 140 Pts
1 Land Speeder Tornado @ [70] Pts
Multi-Melta; Heavy Flamer
1 Land Speeder Tornado #1 @ [70] Pts
Multi-Melta; Heavy Flamer
0 Land Speeder Squadron (Fast Attack) @ 70 Pts
1 Land Speeder Tornado @ [70] Pts
Multi-Melta; Heavy Flamer
Models in Army: 42
Total Army Cost: 1500
Reply:
Well, help a guy out. I think this list has serious issues. Mostly those Dreads. Thoughts?
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20 comments:
I think the dreads , the way they are set up are redundant in this list. I know it feels like you're getting more bang for the buck that is Vulkan, but you already have enough antitank between the speeders and tacticals. I think going the long range fire support with rifleman dreads would serve you better. Drop the Land speeders to 1 per squadron and get yourself some dakka preds as well. I think 2 rifledreads and 2 destructor preds would serve you just fine.
Also , I don't feel like we did right by the guy who asked for help with his Space Wolf list with Njal and Thunderwulves...So if anyone feels like dropping by and leaving some wisdom, I think it would be much appreciated.
Few thoughts
Drop the HF's on the dreds. They don't do much.
Spend the points to put combi melta's on your sergents. In a vulkan army, they are incredible, helping you down vehicles and MC's, and improving firepower vs MEQ's.
Agrees with mDZ on working in some more long range firepower. You're running more than enough melta for a 2000 pt list in 1500, where as you said raiders are much less common. Rifleman (dreds with 2 TL Auto Cannons) and Dakka Preds (Predators with an Auto Cannon and Bolter Sponsons) will help the list a lot.
Vulkan needs a home. Easiest solution would be to switch a MM for a missile or Lascannon in a tac squad, split them, and have vulkan ride shotgun with the sgt and flamer. More radical changes could include cutting a tac squad, having him join some Assault terminators on foot, and advancing with the dreds, but that undermines your mobility a bit. Speaking as a vulkan player, i think he's a bit of a hiderance at 1500, but he can work.
So, here's how i would run the list with minimum changes
Vulkan
2x Dred w/ 2x TL Auto Cannon
1x 10 Tac Marines w/ Lascannon, Flamer, Combi Melta, Pfist, in Rhino
2x 10 Tac Marines w/ Multi Melta, Flamer, Combi Melta, in Rhino
3x 1 Speeder w/ Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer
2x Predator w/ Autocannon, HB Sponson
The Pfist was thrown on the squad vulkan rolls with because there wasn't a better place to put those 25 pts, and it makes them marginally better in CC.Alternativly, drop it and the lascannon to put PW's in the other two squads, making them all cc threats.
You've got plenty of melta, but no real long range firepower. Rifleman Dreads, Typhoons and Dakka Preds are all very handy at getting lots of medium S shots out at long range. Perfect for cracking open transports so you can burninate the contents.
Where is Vulkan going anyway? Rhinos are full and I doubt you'll be combat squadding. He fits in quite nicely with a LR full of Termies.
This list would get trashed pretty fast at the SL GW store in SW Houston even when not playing one-trick-pony lists like nob bikerz. Lose a dreadnaught, maybe a tactical squad for some scouts. Although I guess for 1500 it's ok....but all someone needs is light anti tank guns and the list is toast.
I'd have to (by taking a different road) reccomend a few drop pods. Drop 1 dread and give each of the other dreads a drop pod.
I'd also give BOTH of those drop pods Locator beacons, making your Land Speeder's Deep striking ability much more useful.
you're running 3 tac squads. too much at 1500 since you should combat squad 1 to let vulkan ride along, drop to 2 tac squads, give one of them a missile launcher. let vulkan ride in that squad's rhino.
Give each sergent a Power Fist and each of a Combi-Flamer . at BS4 you're better off with the flamer since they auto hit and re-roll to wound.
if you were running say a master of the forge who is BS5, a combi-Melta is an awesome idea, but at 1500 flamers will be more useful.
This gives you the "Range" you need and a bit more of a push for ummph.
Stephen
In the few months that have passed since I submitted this list, I came to pretty much the same conclusion as you guys have and dropped 2 landspeeders, 1 dreadnought and the dread flamers to get 3 dakka predators and some combi-meltas. That made the difference between losing against tough lists and doing pretty well against them - the predators are almost always my mvps. Vulkan combat squads into a rhino and acts as a countercharge unit, or helps with drive-by flaming.
I really want to get some rifleman dreadnoughts to try - the imperial strongpoint box to make some of those is my next purchase, at which point I will do more testing of Vulkan vs MotF in this list. I actually got a second drop pod recently as well, so I will playtest Steve's advice and see how it goes.
Steve Berenyi : If you gave the Dreads a pod , he'd drop one on the first turn and then what? You shoot at something, hopefully some armor, hopefully killing it and then , next turn the lonely ancient is dead , for real this time. Powerfists for sergeants seem like a waste, Marines don't win CC, they run away and then regroup and shoot. If Dreads and other things you need fists for are assaulting your tacticals, you've already got more trouble than you asked for and and a powerfist here or there is not going to fix it. At least , that's what I think.
I was thinking more in terms of dropping the 1st dread not next to the enemy, but into midfield and near cover right in front of the rhino rush, helping to give my rhinos cover on the advance, and firing the MM from 24" away at light armor or an MC. I'm not a fan of powerfists either. Unless I really need bolters to torrent something down, I tend to keep my tacsquads in the rhinos, in cover, sitting on objectives - they are just so hard to kill that way.
Of course, with a MotF or librarian they would be even HARDER to kill, and those rifleman dreads would more than make up the additional MC/lightarmor killing power of the TL multimeltas... what I really want to do is play several games with a vulkan MM heavy list vs. the best of list with rifleman dreads. I would really miss the twinlinking with how poorly I roll, but I also really miss combat tactics with vulkan.
If you have Dakka preds in the list now I am not sold on Riffleman Dreads for 20 points more a piece. MM and the DCCW on a standard Dread are good, plus you do have Vulkan. Insisting on Vulkan changes things.
I found it quite surprising that a 2-month player made a list that good. I've seen people who've been playing for five years with far worse lists.
I think you don't need Vulkan at all. MotF on bike with a conversion beamer or a Libby with a SS would work just fine. You already have plenty of melta to deal with heavy armor and when it comes to light...well, the Rifleman Dreads are no slouches. 4 TL autocannon shots at BS 4 and with S 7 you're penetrating rhinos from the front 1/3 of the times. And of course they can move and fire so that's a good thing too. I think if you went with flamers and Multimeltas in your tac squads and combimeltas on your sarges, you will have more than enough special weapons to take care of business. And as for where to stick the Libby or Vulkan if you decide to keep him. Razorback is out, cause if you have only of those , it's going down fast, unless you hide it behind your rhinos and even then...3+ cover save is not going to hold forever. I guess it mainly boils down to what you would feel most comfortable fielding. The theme and models also come into this. If you're going with straight up sallies , the multimelta dreads fit the theme. To the poster under me > the Dreads are actually 40 points more a piece but they bring a lot more. They can move and still be fully effective when shooting, they are much more accurate and they can tie up stuff that has no means of dealing with them. I like my rifleman dreads...
Oops, sorry MorbidlyObeseMonkey. I was reacting to devinstater before you posted.
I don't think he should drop the MM dreads for Rifleman dreads. Doesn't he need something that is scary in close combat? What about an assault cannon instead?
I keep seeing people say a 3+ cover save for tank screening, can someone point out where it says it? I keep having cover debates with my local gaming group and this info could really settle some arguments.
AC's kinda suck in CC. Besides, Riflemen are prenty scary to anything without a powerfist in CC, they kick you in the face and laugh at your 1 in 36 chance of glancing with a Krak Grenade.
AC's kinda suck on dreds. Besides, Riflemen are still scary in CC to anyone without a Powerfist, they'll kick you in the face and laugh at your 1 in 36 chance of glancing with a krak grenade.
chris.bibliophile : I wouldn't say they are outright scary, 2 attacks, WS4 S6 and you still get armour saves...that does not really scare anybody. But you can tie people up...
Sean: Page 62 of the main rulebook, last paragraph on the left. It starts "It may rarely happen..."
Fun times. Don't start claiming a 3+ save for being 'hull down', and still shooting a turret though (For example: A Razorback firing over a Rhino it is right next to), unless you are prepared for that particular shitstorm. In b4 topic hijack.
Onto the list:
The changes you've made a good, but definitely give the Rifleman dreads a run. They can chew up some light armor, and a lot of armies don't like that. In a pinch they can throw themselves into the path of the enemy as well. They won't kill much, but sometimes just surviving is enough.
Um... otherwise, solid. The Key to a good Vulkan list is to not get suckered into his rule bonus. Meltas and flamers are ace, but against some of the top tier lists you really don't want to give them a turn or two unmolested. Things like Vendettas, Hydras, and (in some cases) Razorbacks will knock your chin right off if you give them the chance. And things like Wave Serpents and Immolators will position themselves to put a special made boot for whatever part of your list they want to kill at that moment, into that part of your list. Unless you stop them. Rifleman dreads can reach out and touch these threats better than the Predators. And hey, I haven't seen many 2+ saves in the Tyranid MCs, so putting wounds on them isn't such an outside possibility. That's a good thing.
Tell us how the Rifleman dreads turn out. Maybe try Proxying them a game or two.
A thought for Stelek
I know there are good intentions behind trying to work your way through your email backlog, but when we keep getting responses like "i sent this months ago, and have already made most of the changes you recommend by figuring them out myself from reading the blog," do you think there might be some merit to skipping a lot of the backlog and get to where you're responding to more recent emails?
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