Dear Stelek,
I'm a casual Farsight player, and from where I've dwelled in Tau Online, ever since 5E rolled by all I could hear was doom and gloom. FoF fell off the podium along with JSJ. Pansy Ninja Tau (not the AggroTau method I was used to!) was touted as the only way to go. SM, Orcs, IG codex, then SW made more bluefaces cry...
I may be casual, but I do try to win some of my games. Frankly, it's been a struggle to stay afloat from all the cheese that's been flying around in expense of Tau. Then somebody brought up "Stelek-style" lists, which got me curious. When I found your site, I was stunned even more; this guy actually thinks Tau is one of the most competitive codex out there?! Is he nuts?!
I'll be honest with you; before this, I am to be considered your run-of-the-mill Tau weeaboo who due to various reasons ends up playing gimped lists. I do want to improve my game, and so am always on the lookout for any list or tactic that would help me. However, at the same time, I wanted to play an army that I liked, hence why I've stuck to Tau, and particularly the Farsight Enclaves, and worked from there. Being unable to take more of the many of the "super" units of Tau grew me into more a tactical rather than cheese-list player, and so your tactica immediately resonated with me. I've tried everything and haven't gotten very far, so I'm going to slay a few more of my sacred cows and give your tactica a shot. I do hope you can find time to help me review this next retooling of my cadre.
2500 pts mainly because of a small 'Ard-Boyz-like mini-tourney the local shop is hosting soon.
2500 Pts - Tau Empire Roster - Farsight Enclave Manta Mont'ka Cadre
1 Farsight @ 175 Pts
Hard-wired Target Lock; Dawn Blade; Plasma Rifle; Target Lock; Shield Generator
7 Bodyguard Shas'vre @ 504 Pts
Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker
Notes: I love Farsight. He was the first model I bought, painted and played before hitting the points value to actually use his rules. His restrictions have never been a handicap to me. And he has a big sword, and a beam rifle; plays to my mecha fantasies along with the rest of the suit-heavy lists I usually run. :p But I expect to lose more than a proper mainstream Tau list, so it's a downside I'd take. In the meantime, I'll bask in his ability to bring 5 more Fireknife Crisis than any other hybrid Tau list out there, to sic all 8 of them guns blazing on a unit before charging to really mess with the opponent's mind, and that playing him just makes me happy. =D
1 Commander Shas'el @ Pts
Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker
2 Bodyguard Shas'vre @ Pts
Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker
3 Crisis Battlesuit @ 186 Pts
Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker
3 Crisis Battlesuit @ 186 Pts
Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker
3 Crisis Battlesuit @ 186 Pts
Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker
Notes: Oddly repetitive to me thus far; as I explained earlier, I'm used to custom Crisis designs, not spamming. ^^;;;
6 Fire Warrior @ 60 Pts
Pulse Rifle (x6)
1 Devilfish @ [95] Pts
Burst Cannon; Gun Drones; Disruption Pod; Landing Gear; Multi-Tracker;
Notes: This Devilfish pattern has so many names it ain't funny. I usually call it the Cheapfish; others, because of the minimal team of FWs inside, a Scorefish. To the rest, it's a 5th Edition Warfish, being able to fire 10 S5 shots per 24" moved versus with an SMS upgrade to only 7 per 24". I rarely dismount the FWs, unless I'm completely sure the extra 12 S5 at 12" is what I need to push things over.
6 Fire Warrior @ 60 Pts
Pulse Rifle (x6)
Notes: Oh god why do my troops suck so...
1 Shas'ui Pathfinder @ 201 Pts
Markerlight; Pulse Carbine; Bondage Knife
7 Shas'la Pathfinders
Markerlight (x7); Pulse Carbine (x7)
1 Devilfish
Burst Cannon; Gun Drones; Disruption Pod; Landing Gear; Marker Beacon; Multi-Tracker;
Note: Another advantage I noted about keeping the Drones meant I could generate speed bumps, which I lack due to Farsight's restrictions. Had 10 points leftover, so spent it on a Shas'ui + Knife upgrade to make sure they stay on the board for longer.
2 Piranha Light Skimmer @ 150 Pts
Fusion Blaster (x2); Gun Drones (x2); Decoy Launcher (x2); Targeting Array (x2)
2 Gun Drones @ [0] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines
Note: First time I'm taking this unit. My thoughts for DLs against the DP+TL is that DLs let me keep my skimmers alive if they are immobilized, I boost 24" for my cover save, and that once I was in some tank's buttcrack with melta DPs give me no benefit either way. I'm used to firing both FBs into the same tank to make sure it goes boom hence why I passed on the TL.
6 Gun Drones @ [72] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines
Note: Deepstrikable speed-bump, in place of Krooty outflanking types. At least they are I4.
1 Hammerhead Gunship @ 168 Pts
Railgun; Burst Cannons; Disruption Pod; Landing Gear; Multi-Tracker; Targeting Array, Blacksun Filter
Note: I'm going to move 12" every turn, and if I do move only 6" I'd better fire as many shots (+6 versus +4) as I can. That SMS is going to be useless IMO, so BCs. Saves me another 10 points. That lone BSF is for me to fire on turn 1 of DoW, and that I still had 3 points spare anyway.
1 Broadside Battlesuit @ 75 Pts
Twin linked Railgun; Smart Missile System; Multi-Tracker
2 Broadside Battlesuit @ 150 Pts
Twin linked Railgun; Smart Missile System; Target Lock
Note: D3 move every turn... Not sure if the extra 15 pts for ASS is worth it. And I need points really badly for both the Fireknife flood and still bring enough anti-tank for the points level. This keeps the values down and lets me fire at 3 targets rather than just 2.
Total: 2499 pts
General Comments:
I love how everything save the 2 Piranha fit into the belly of a Tau Manta... Just one of my other habits in designing lists. =P
I've got many doubts about this list at the same time; how should I play it? I'm thinking of something like having the sides and PFs deploy as a central anchor that the rest of the mobile force fights around? Also, about the only thing I think I'm deliberately doing wrong is to bring Farsight himself, disguising it under the extra 5 Fireknives over a normal list while I lose Kroot, another Railhead and another Piranha squadron.
I just don't know! Everything and anything can be changed! Please help! ^^;;;
Thanks mon!
Kaphias KhaKaphias Kha
Reply:
Well, I don't think much of Farsight Enclaves--hopefully you'll figure out to run Farsight's model as a 'counts as' HQ, and run a proper Tau list as I think that's the actual problem.
Anyone have other advice?
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10 comments:
4 railguns at 2500 is a problem. You cant deal effectivly with lists running 3-4 raiders
No shields or ASS on the broadsides is a bigger problem. Makes them literally a sitting duck. They will die turn 1 to IG arty lists, and you'll be in trouble.
Farsight makes Broadsides 0-1, so if im reading your list right and they're two seperate units, the list has a problem.
I've run the math, and if you want to run a fish w/o sms, its worth it to spend the 5 points to add the TA. Yes, it only affects the burst cannon, but it's worth it.
You priced the blacksun filter on the hammerhead wrong, it costs more points on vehicles than it does on suits.
I think you made the right decision running the hammerhead w/o SMS or TL. the 180 pt setup is better with a list like steleks, because most turns the hammerheads will move 6" or less and can fire both their weapons. In a list like this, without suffecient blocking elements, you will need to move your hammerhead more, and won't be able to fire the SMS as much.
Overall, i think if you want to run farsight not as a counts as model, but following his rules in the codex, this is about the best you can do at 2500. I think the list will have lots of trouble against IG arty and raider spam lists, but should decent against the normal lists you see at arb boys, 2000 pt lists with random models thrown in to make them 2500.
Ah yes, always forget how much people suck at soft boys, don't I. lol
Talk about loooooong overdue! XD Yes the old list used to perform against random lists until IG changed my game (or rather, gave ppl the excuse to bring Armored Companies!) I then came to Stelek for help, which he did with a 2500 pt list a while back.
(At that time I haven't got JS-kit to sing to my tune, so I was stuck as "Kha The Cleric (Axuliary Contact)" for a long time)
And so, I've since dropped Farsight from my list. Apoc is apoc, mainstream is mainstream. :D
My 2500 list is very much like the 2500 Tau list Stelek made. 11 fireknives, 2 FW teams 2 kroot, 2 piranhas, 2 pathfinder teams, and 9 broadsides. I tried swapping around the sides and hammerheads to get a proper balance, but in the end, I returned to this general idea Stelek first made.
On a side note:
I also went to town with a new Apoc formation comprising of 2 Orcas I borrowed, my own manta, and this cadre, plus a few extra parts that I would never bring to a normal game, simply because I could. The game we played all through Christmas was awesome. Dumping all 3 vehicles and the entire cadre into an Ork Waaghist's face, running half before even shooting, then shooting the other half off the table, it made me feel like I just drove a Porche up to a friend's place! =D
Of course I'm still reeling from buying that giant starship... Even though it was a year ago, I still haven't bought a real car, a good camera and even paints to paint that huge thing. I think I used up my future child's college funds as well... ^^;;;
Combining the Broadsides into a single unit is obviously necessary, if that's not what it was meant to be. A Team Leader w/HW Target Lock and Drone Controller (plus Bonding Knife) and a pair of Shield Drones nets you a pretty survivable unit that can put out a lot of firepower on the move. Obviously they all use ASS, because anything else is a waste.
Drop the Gun Drones, they simply aren't going to do much of anything. Your Piranhas and Devilfish can block better than they ever will, so you could be running a squad of Pathfinders in their place- and that wouldn't be a terrible choice, because you're really short on Markerlights for a 2500 list.
If you're going to run Farsight, you need to take advantage of his ability to take a large number of bodyguards. You're doing that numerically, but none of the suits are unique, nor have you taken any Hardwired gear on them (like Drone Controllers). I haven't gotten to do enough testing to get a very good idea of what the best setup overall is, some suggestions:
-Scatter some Flamers and Fusion Blasters in there, combined with Target Locks to fire at what you need to. This gives you the ability to do some damage to light/heavy vehicles (depending on how you split your fire) or massed troops without having to assault them. You really don't want to get stuck in with something like 30 boyz + Nob or the new Tyranids.
-Drone Controllers with Gun/Shield Drones to suit. Otherwise S8+ weapons are going to ruin your day. These also help in CC, giving you some wounds to pawn of PF attacks on and add some obnoxious I4 attacks to get your hits in early. Also usefulin order to...
-Make every member of the squad unique. You're already gimping yourself with Farsight, so abusing wound allocation shouldn't make you feel too bad. All squad members are taking MP, PR, and some kind of MT, so you need seven other, seperate groups for ideal split. I'd say define "basic kit" as MP + PR and go like this:
-basic + MT
-basic + MT, HWDC
-basic + FB, HWMT
-basic + FB, HWMT, HWDC
-basic + FB, HWTL, HWMT
-basic + DC, HWMT
-basic + TL, HWMT
I know that's not ideal, as it's just off the top of my head. You want to try and get either: A, Target Locks on everyone except the Fusion suits or B, TL on all the Fusion suits. No time to optimize that right now, but that's the idea. Using the differentiation between HW and non-HW gear to maximize your uniqueness while minimizing your splits in roles. Flamers can also sub for Fusion if you're more worried about hordes than AV14.
I can see gun drones being used to be cover saves that you give to yourself, but never to your enemy. Using the assault phase jump, they could keep a unit of crisis suits in cover, while letting them maintain mobility, and also never giving that same cover save to the enemy, as the drones won't be in front of your own unit until the assault phase. They could also be an assault speedbump allowing you to play crisis suits more aggressively. Of course, they could also just get shot off the table, but then that's firepower that's not being used on your suits.
Here's the problem. You have this massive Crisis unit, with MP/Plas/MT. How much overkill are you going to be dumping on a unit every turn? You have this incredibly killy unit that will kill 2 units of marines, but can only target one.
It doesn't matter if Drones are in front of Crisis Suits, they won't give cover saves to the enemy. That isn't how cover works. They will, however, give cover to you.
Firing in between the models of a unit, friendly or enemy, gives cover saves to other non-vehicle/non-MC units.
But shooting over does not.
@Gryphin
That's half the reason you want those Target Locks scattered around. You don't always use them to put flamers/melta on units- sometimes you just spam two sets of guys with MP/Plasma. It also gives you some options for shooting guys and then assaulting.
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