Comment by Brent:
I don't read Dakka, as a general rule, but today I was following up a comment Greenblowfly made about someone named Gwar!, who has been banned for one month. Someone made a comparison to Stelek (favorable), then someone said Stelek has been banned from his IRL game store.
Stelek: confirm or deny? I can't imagine it's true - that would be a truly dickhead thing for a store owner to do.
I'm not trying to spread bullshit rumors - I'm going straight to the source, so to speak. My apologies if you've covered this elsewhere.
Reply:
Oh it's very much true, sad to say.
Day after the tournament, invited to not return.
/shrug/
Neat it's hit Dakka and I haven't said anything.
Guess folks find time to visit other forums and talk.
I'd be shocked, but honestly I'm not.
Wasn't really shocked by this move, it's a crime to speak the truth and hurt some feelers.
Such a shame really, trying to foster community among the various game stores is laudable but in the end, stupid. See, the owner seems to believe the 'competitive' environment I push is responsible for the lack of sales in the store. Not anyone else, not the recession, not anything to do with him I guess.
Who knows. I'm sure I'm to blame for everyone's problems with the store--maybe I can give people a 20$ outside the store and beg them to come back. Those visits of mine once a month are surely to blame. The other 29 days of fail, I can't take credit for, sorry to say.
Oh normally I'd be very upset and rant to great lengths, but if you can't tell by the lack of me posting much of anything until someone else finally did, it really isn't a big deal.
I'm sure nobody actually cares about the person behind the blog. Stabbing friends in the back is fairly normal for a game store. Isn't it?
I wonder who's next? I wager Jimmy is. (Of course, no offense or slight is intended towards Jimmy nor am I implying Jimmy's character is anything but honorbound, as it most certainly is.)
So I wonder who GBF knows at Mind Games. Funny stuff, that. Or maybe it got disseminated some other way. Meh.
In the end, it's as my wife has been telling me all year long:
"You know who your friends are. The ones that don't stab you in the back when you are helping them."
Can't say she's wrong about that one.
See why all I see is negative, Jimmy?
Come to expect it really, even when I'm hoping for the positive...
Ah well. Stores loss.
Home My Life » Ye Olde Stab in the Back
Saturday, November 28, 2009
Ye Olde Stab in the Back
By
Stelek
Labels: My Life
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44 comments:
Seriously? I bought more than a grand of toys from him this year mostly to play in your tournament and have fun. His loss. Warstore here I come.
So, do you have another local store you can play at?
Chaos: Sorry to say, yep.
Chris: Meh, I live near a couple and can get to the ones down south easier but MG has always been known as a competitive haven. Why I started going there. Funny how I get blamed for a stores rep the store had that made me choose to go to it almost a decade ago. :-P Sorry, the answer is...not really. Most of the stores locally aren't exactly welcoming. I was going to try and change that this year with a inter-store set of tourneys, but that's pretty much shot.
The rumor started first on another thread on Dakka that the MODs deleated. It was also kind of confirmed by your poll in the left.
When I lived in SLC before I moved to Cottonwood Heights, I stayed for a year at the Scottsdale apartments at 4000 S Redwood Rd in WVC right behind the K-Mart.
I was out of 40K for the few years that I lived in Utah, but after a while I started to get back into it and made some purchases at Mind Games. I did not start to play games until I moved back to California. I wondered to myself how very different my current gaming (40k) philosophy would have been if I started to play in Mind Games with you and your friends. Peoples beliefs are unsually set by the gaming culture that they find yourself in, if I had started playing in Mind Games, I would have had the same outlook on the game that you have.
Instead I found myself playing in LA with a group that highly promoted comp, and bringing friendly lists, and not power lists, and that was how I was imprinted with that gaming culture.
wtf? Why were you banned from a gaming store?
Fuck man, do you not think you'll be able to play at all? The hobby dies a little bit every time someone has to stop playing, espicially when that someone is experienced and has been playing for awhile.
If it was just the store owner, and not most of the players, maybe you could see if some of them want to play elsewhere.
Yeah, this took me and all the other regulars at MG pretty much by suprise. It seems like a slap in the face after the super successful tournament series that Andy ran.
There are a couple of people who are bitter, who have been very vocal to the owner, and apparently hold more sway than the rest of the community which has really appreciated Andy's efforts.
As a business owner myself, I have advised the owner of MG on my feelings. He has acknowledged that he could be making a huge mistake, but for some reason is letting a couple of people sway him.
In fact in a rather in depth conversation of the whole thing, he said that there had been no specific incidents or complaints recently "it was just a feeling he had".
I feel a lot like Andy does, I may very well be the next one to get banned as I have strong opinions and the will to share them.
Funny how a recession comes and that isn't to blame.
Also from a strictly economic standpoint, why ban someone who spends hundreds of dollars a month at your store? And on top of that runs your tournaments for free? And on top of that encourages others to support your store to the tune of them spending hundreds of dollars a month?
I don't get it. It really makes me sad.
Jimmy
PS I still think you should look for the positive more. :-D
BTW I would be really interested to know how GBF or whoever at Dakka found out.
See, the thing is, there is about $500.00 a week that may come back if Andy isn't there calling them stupid for running weak list in a profane way. It is not the message, it's the delivery.
I doubt Jimmy will get the ban because people don't feel PERSONALLY ATTACKED when he criticizes people's list or play. Andy comes across as an arrogant know it all with no respect for others feelings or intellence. Sorry Andy, but that is the way it feels when you comment on people's games.
I personally think it is a bad idea to ban you, Andy, but I can see why it happened.
Aaron Wayman, Tuesday evening player.
First not trying to pick on anyone for their opinons on this but I have to start with Aarons comment. If he is there once or twice a month how is that scaring the 500$ a week away? How much stuff does Andy buy ? How much stuff do his friends buy because of him ( gee i sunk a grand into MG not to long ago, a game i would never have cared about had it not been for Andy?). How much money from people buying and making lists for tournaments? The fincial argument is probably the least effective. If by some chance it was a simple " hey could you not come in the store on xyz " would handle it. Andy is opinonated to be sure, and yes maybe his delivery isn't that of coddeling people. However how many people are constantly asking him for advice, rules clarifictions etc?
As far as the Banning goes , if I didnt cover it above already I think its a very stupid idea. Andy puts a lot of work into this game and trying to bring in new blood, encourage people to have fun and create events ( something GW slacks on). To me the pros out way the cons on that , but time will tell a few months from now should be a good indication of whethere it was a good idea or not.
Finaly I've know Andy a very long time and it makes me sad and sickens to me to see him get crapped on like this. All the guy really wants is to get people together , play these games and have a good time. He also wants it to be fair, and by the rules. He is probably one of the best people you can have in your corner, I can think of few people that are as zealous about fair play in all things as he is. My end point is he deserves far better then this.
Well Stelek does come to the point quickly, but only you argue stupid points all the time. Good points are given due consideration.
Equally if you buy some biovores because you like the fluff/model then andy isn't going to tell you to do any differently, just don't pretend that they are competitive and you won't get told to wake up.
I don't know if Andy is as sharp in real life as he seems on the blog. I rather think that might be simply to do with the number of reposonses he has to deal with (being curt might be related to time). But I don't know.
In any case banning seems rather silly.
"I don't want any yes-men around me. I want everyone to tell me the truth - even if it costs him his job." - Samuel Goldwyn
Aaron: MG has always been like that. I'm not the cause, I learned that from the old regulars--the ones that don't play anymore. You know, the ones that used to beat me down on a regular basis--they were that competitive, that good. I didn't stop coming, and I didn't stop playing--others did, and that was accepted. I highly doubt 500$ a week is going to return to the store because I'm not there--I'm just not there enough to have that kind of effect. People ask me about their list, and I give them my honest answer. I usually ask if they are sure they want me to rip it up, and I can't do anything if they feel personally attacked--how sensitive are people? Should I lie instead? I give up games to new players to the store (be they noobs or vets). Does the owner? Well, we all know that isn't what he's about. That's why people don't come in during the week, but come in during the weekend. There is a serious divide at that shop, and everyone but the owner has known about it for years?? It's always been that way.
See, from my point of view--after the shoddy way I've been repeatedly treated, yet still show up to run tournaments and pay to make them work out. Events where, of all things, I get called jackass, asshole, and dickhead?! things if said to the owner would get you thrown out of the store, but I took them on the chin because fostering a community was so important to me. Where was the owners support? Prize support? Come on. Who doesn't know where the prize support has been going for the past decade? It's in the army display in front of where he sits, in case you missed it. That's why I had to pay, because the store wouldn't.
Did you see the amount of effort I put into the FoW tournament? Everyone thinks all I care about is competition, and not fun--I spent two weeks playtesting those scenarios, and making absolutely sure I had the history right--because the "fluff" is very important.
There are plenty of other ascerbic people at MG. Their contribution to the store is far less than my own, if it exists at all. Maybe my idea of contribution is different--I'd certainly like to know who I've chased out of the store. Me personally. Hey I know, maybe all the people who used to play FoW will come back. Or...they have a new store to exist at, where other people won't run MG level armies, and they can play more 'friendly' than 'competitive'. Which is bs, as you can have friendly and competitive. Refusal to spend money to update your army to play in a new edition--that's my fault, is it? And will improve if I'm not around?
Maybe the owner can have '40k 4e' nights, where mech isn't allowed. So long as you buy a box of infantry. And don't worry, Andy won't be around to make you feel bad about your toy soldiers. I can hear the koombaya now...
Obeisance: Figured out the why, or do I need to explain in more detail (something I obviously don't really have).
Chris.B: Most of the people I enjoy playing already play at my house or have shown an interest in playing elsewhere. I talked to my wife, and you know...I've been making a whole lot of effort lately (like, the last year) to improve my relationship with her, and it's been paying off. I don't need to go to MG to 'escape', I rarely have the inclination to go--as I usually sat there begging anyone for a game, but I'm too much of an asshole to be bothered with (always a nice feeling, btw) and so my visits have been few and far between over the last few months.
Funny thing is, my spending over the past 6 months has been virtually nil--saving for a house does that to you. If anything has affected the bottom line, it's not me being around--it's me not being around and not spending money.
Guess we'll see how things work out, but in the end--I don't care.
Without a public apology and asking me to return, I'll never go back.
You only get to stab me in the back twice.
This really sounds like a situation where a good old-fashioned boycott might work wonders. See if your friends will choose to buy and game elsewhere.
I'd also like to point out that a relatively local store had a "footsloggers ball" tournament where vehicles with a transport capacity were not allowed. Apparently it was very well received, which makes me think that people just don't get it.
I would love to know who the people were that convinced the owner to ban you? I have a strange feeling those are the same people who used to be so vocal Friday and Saturday nights how much they hate him and refuse to ever buy anything in his store but show up every weekend because they need a place to play.
Wow.
So, you run a big series of tournaments for the store, probably get people to buy/play stuff, and then have them expand their armies for the last run (...which, if they did it just for that tourney, is probably several hundred dollars alone).
Then once you're done, you promptly get asked never tocome again.
For me, it's the timing that looks a little suspect. If you were really that much of an asshole so as to drive people off, I can't help but think you might've been shit-canned prior to the big brawl.
I mean, I'm not making excuses for the, shall we say, blunt manner in which Stelek delivers his points. It is what it is, and sometimes it rubs people the wrong way.
On the other hand, I'm scratching my head a little. I don't see how sending one guy away will bring in $2,000 more in sales in a month.
I mean, I'm pretty sure there's this whole 10-11% unemployment thing going around, maybe the store owner has heard of it..or maybe there's a need to blame SOMEONE and feel like you did something about it? I don't know.
Sucks to find ot who you can and can't trust like this. Then again, as the Stelek said, if this had really hacked him off, he probably would've posted about it rather than had someone ask.
WTF?!?!?! you got banned from MG?? thats about retarded. i guess i know where im not going when i get back into town. let me know where the games are gonna be andy, ill head that way.
I've never heard of a store dropping the 'Ban Hammer' on one of it's regulars before. What kind of drama filled envronment causes someone to get asked not to return.... to a game store? There really must not be a lot going on in Utah for this type of bullshit to go down. Don't get me wrong, there's always drama when people are involved, but it's a damn GAMESTORE. It definately has to be one of those ' you gotta be there to understand' situations, because I truly don't understand.
There has been a guy who stopped showing up at my LGS just because nobody would play him, and we wouldn't let him join the monthly league, but he was not formally banned from the store.
"<span>I'd also like to point out that a relatively local store had a "footsloggers ball" tournament where vehicles with a transport capacity were not allowed. Apparently it was very well received, which makes me think that people just don't get it."</span>
Wildstyle, are you in Washington State?
Close, I'm in Portland.
So was the Footsloggers Ball at Olympic Cards and Comics?
That's pretty shitty
I would hope that the several locals who have commented would share their thoughts with MG's owner. I think there is a negative feedback loop he is stuck inside right now and he needs to hear voices of other interested parties than normal(including my own, I think he is numb to my thoughts, I am just Andy's crony).
Aaron I agree wholeheartedly, Andy could work on his delivery. He is gradually improving though. This is absolutely the wrong way to treat people, if they improve you praise and reward them, you don't tell them to go hang. That is just reinforcing the wrong behavior.
Yes Purgatus, it was. Did you attend? How did people end up liking the event? I think on the OFCC forums everyone just said they had a good time.
While a bad move by the store owner, in my opinion, is anyone really suprised it came to this?
I'm not.
Well, yes, everyone was. Why weren't you?
Hi Stelek
I did not post that you were banned. I do have an article on my blog about Gwar being suspended from Dakka Dakka, maybe someone mentioned it there in a comment. Personally I am sad to hear you were banned from MG.
G
<span>To be completely honest I do not know how people can make snap judgements after only hearing one part of the story. That seems to be the true mark of a fanboy</span>
So you spread a local store's name all over the world, organize tournaments for them AND "advertise" them, and they ask you not to appear again... I know that's the kind of world we live in, but still, man... :(
"You know who your friends are. The ones that don't stab you in the back when you are helping them."
Just remember, stab you enemies in the back, and your friends in the chest.
Intersting. I think most stores are fail bacause they don't run and encourage enough events to bring people to them more often. And here a store has free help running events, and here is the boot. Yeah well, I believe there is a saying "here is your sign".
Well there's just not enough information to form an objective opinion here, but that definitely sucks for you. My condolences.
lol how can it be your fault for their lack of sales? Surely you're not there 24/7 so cannot affect every customers purchasing habits?
Perhaps the owner should concentrate on making more sales, instead of losing a customer. Word of mouth is the best form of advertising, and its free, it can also break a company too.
Let's see:
Tyrius: No one will. No one else did for the last decade, why would it start now? Actually make an effort? lol Right, that'll happen. You don't spend money there, so I don't know why you'd care one way or another really. I don't know if I should be insulted or not by the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Should I? lol
CG: I don't cheat, or steal, or encourage others to not spend money at the store. I spend my money there, and I advocate for the store. I run the tournaments because no one will go to one the owner runs. So what should I say or do to put out 'enough information'? It doesn't suck for me, to be honest--it sucks for the store, as it'll soon be closing and the whiners won't have any place to play. Well, besides the disloyal "friends" who play elsewhere anyway and always have. They'll be just fine. As will I.
Matthew: Well put.
Joao: Nah, free advertising and people coming in to see what 'competitive' is, play in my tournaments, and to talk to me--that's all bad for a store, I guess. lol
G: It's silly really, but it is what it is.
You come in and talk about your ebay purchases, and how everyone should buy from ebay. What, I should assume you actually buy from MG? I actually say and do. If you say but don't do--well, that's not a good way to make me think you are a loyal customer. Grats on buying 3 or 4 armies from the store. I've purchased 41 armies from the store.
I've been going to MG since Matt moved it over. You can say there were tournaments before, but there weren't. Sorry, you can call me a liar if you want but I remember the old crowd--there were no tournaments held at MG. One fail tournament every 3 years does not a tournament make.
Correct me where I'm wrong. I'm relying solely on my own eyes and ears.
I'm not the only one who has heard you say it. I'm not trying to get into a fight with you--I don't see me taking anything you wrote and skewing them. I don't know when opening myself up to criticism (as I do here) meant I cannot criticize others without being turned on. I really don't get it. Why is everyone so sensitive? The internet isn't going to come find you and call you names, you know. It really isn't.
"Why is everyone so sensitive?"
Its our Right!
The right to not be offeneded. Surely you have heard about it by now.
If you (anyone, everyone, not one specific individual) are offended by that, let me console you, KMA.
I have been a regular at MG for close to 13 years now and have known both Matt and Andy for most of that time. Matt is a very close friend of mine. While in the past I thought Andy was a complete asshat, he has made great strides over the last couple of years to be a better person. He is to be commended for that. I now consider Andy a good friend and enjoy playing games with him and getting good advice. He was the one who gave me the suggestions for my list that I think made the difference from the poor showing I had at the first three tournies this year to winning the final.
While I don't agree that banning him from the store is the end all answer to the financial woes of our gaming store, there is a certain amount of credibility to the points about the atmosphere at the store. The level of competitiveness at the store that this tournament series has brought to the forefront is having a negative effect on the overall moral of the community. It's true that there has always been drama in one way or another, but there is an attitude that if you are playing a list or an army that Andy has deemed "sub par" you are a sub par player and person. It didn't used to be that way. It has also pushed other game systems to the back burners. It is difficult to get a game of fantasy or war of the ring because 40K is pushed so hard, and I have seen in person people who were looking for a non 40K game treated like an idiot for wanting to play something else. Andy is NOT solely responsible for this. But it has really became more of a problem since the tournies and this blog came about. I like both the tournaments and the blog. They are fun and immensely helpful for a lot of people. The problem with community moral is just an unfortunate byproduct.
I'm not trying to bash on Andy. I'm just calling it like I see it. Like the name of the blog suggests. So I hope no one takes this personally. I'm trying to stay as impartial as I can and state how I see things.
Still I don't think that banning Andy is going to fix the problem magically. We are all responsible as a community, But there is another side of the situation that has not been considered on this blog. Matt is a business owner who is trying to save his business. Matt is not one to make decisions like this on a whim, or out of spite. I believe he considered the situation as a whole, past and present and believes he is doing what's best for his business. It's not the only thing he is doing to try and better the environment at MG either.
What will be damaging to the store, and our gaming community would be reacting out of spite and boycotting the store. If that happens then the store closes and we are all forced to go somewhere else or give up the hobby. I for one don't want either of those things to happen. We all share in the responsibility to make our store a better place to play.
Matt is also not blind to the money and contributions that Andy has brought to the store. But desperate times can call for desperate measures. While I might not agree with his decision to ban Andy, I also wont go against Matt or fault him for decisions he feels are in the best interest of his business. I hate to bring it up but a few years ago Andy was banned from the store because of specific incidents. And moral in the store improved after. Later Andy was allowed back, and that was when he started to make changes in how he dealt with people. While there haven't been more incidents, there is a history that can't be ignored.
I do want to say that I won't turn my back on Andy either. If you set up tournaments elsewhere I will attend cause I enjoy them. You put a lot of time, thought and effort into them. And for that I sincerely thank you. I hope I haven't hurt anyone's feelings or pissed anyone off. That's [...]
@stelek
"<span>Well, yes, everyone was. Why weren't you"</span>
<span></span>
<span>Because you can be an ass?</span>
<span></span>
<span>People have their limits. You have proven time and again that you can and will push people past those limits.</span>
<span></span>
<span>At some point, people say enough. Then it's over.</span>
Clint: So how I feel (unable to get a game of anything, 40k or otherwise) on a regular basis, now others do--so I get punished? I don't see the connection--I have been trying to find one, and I have failed.
Anyway, only real correction:
I was never banned from the store.
I walked out of MG after the incident with Micah and chose to stay out for many months.
That was me making the decision, certainly not Matt.
Anyway, just wanted to clear that up. My feelings aren't hurt. If Matt thinks he can save his store in 6 months, then he needs to change in ways he has proven unwilling to for the past decade. I have my doubts.
At any rate:
You do realize the big reason I'm not ranting and raving about this is I was close to walking away before the last tournament, because of the bs put out by a few. I'd had enough. The final tournament and the aftermath showed me a side of MG I haven't seen since Troy and Co. were regulars, but all the good feelings generated that day to maybe work to something better (and all the planning I'd been doing with Matt)...well, I can tell you, that's gone and those kind of opportunities are rare indeed.
Fyi, I am not the only one who over the past two years has thought long and hard about not going to mind games, or in fact has chosen not to--all because of a few. As I play games with them still, I can only assume I am not actually the cause of their angst.
I can only hope the people who have proven the friendship I have with them IS a 2 way street, would not lie to my face in my own home. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.
imweasel: I'm sorry, I might have asked this before--do I know you? Rather, what do you actually know of this situation? Anything? If the answers are negative, why are you throwing gas on the fire man? Me on the internet has only a small bit to do with me in person. There are those mature enough to recognize my blog isn't for MG'ers to take offense at everything I frickin' say, and there are those that get apoplectic over anything said here. Obviously, those friendships were 1 way streets, now closed. Such is life. I don't believe you fit into any of this, do you?
That's just weird. How did it even go down? Hey man you are not allowed here anymore, bye bye? Thats just awkward, especially since you are such an active and productive part of the store. You would think that the man running the events at a store would be the last to get ousted. I was lucky and found a cool store in my area fairly quickly, but I cannot imagine any of our members being asked to leave--and we have some loud mouths who are capable of driving away new customers. Pretty funny actually. Oh the drama of 40k, well best of luck!
And as for whoever commented calling out "fanboy", that was unnecessary. Responses from other locals have been posted along with the owner's take. Truthfully my first thought before reading comments from the locals was that maybe Stelek really is some intolerable dick. But that was retracted fairly quickly.
Mobious: Pretty much. Oh and I can be, but I'm a softie at heart. I tolerate more than I should. So says the wife. lol
All I'm saying is that most of us only have one side of the story.
People can be irrational assheads, but they generally don't do major dick moves for absolutely reason at all.
You probably got screwed and like I said, sorry to hear it. Hopefully some time will pass and things can be reconciled.
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