Sometimes, I get crazy ideas in my head. Ok, probably more than most.
I was thinking to myself, what if I played Marines in a pure form?
Ignore the Marines themselves, and focus instead on a completely mechanized force.
Stack as much firepower into a list as possible, and rely on the vehicle damage table and my sheer weight of firepower, to give this army an advantage.
In short, a shooty army from hell--but built for 5th edition; with it's emphasis on mech, mobility, firepower, and taking objectives.
Without reliance on special characters, not that there is anything wrong with them, but can it work fine without them?
And...could it be done without meltaguns, to give the army what marines traditionally lack, which is range.
You decide.
2000 Pts - Space Marines Roster - Rebirth of the Las/Plas Squad
1 Space Marine Librarian @ 100 pts (...in Power Armour; Null Zone; The Gate of Infinity)
1 ...in Power Armour (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Psychic Hood; Bolt Pistol; Force Weapon)
1 Dreadnought @ 125 pts (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)
1 Dreadnought @ 125 pts (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)
1 Dreadnought @ 125 pts (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)
4 Tactical Squad @ 170 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x4; Bolter x4; Razorback)
1 Sergeant (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol; Bolter)
1 Razorback (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Twin-Linked Plasmagun; Dozer Blade)
4 Tactical Squad @ 170 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x4; Bolter x4; Razorback)
1 Sergeant (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol; Bolter)
1 Razorback (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Twin-Linked Plasmagun; Dozer Blade)
4 Tactical Squad @ 165 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x4; Bolter x4; Razorback)
1 Sergeant (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol; Bolter)
1 Razorback (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Twin-Linked Plasmagun)
4 Tactical Squad @ 165 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x4; Bolter x4; Razorback)
1 Sergeant (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol; Bolter)
1 Razorback (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Twin-Linked Plasmagun)
4 Tactical Squad @ 165 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x4; Bolter x4; Razorback)
1 Sergeant (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol; Bolter)
1 Razorback (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Twin-Linked Plasmagun)
4 Tactical Squad @ 165 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x4; Bolter x4; Razorback)
1 Sergeant (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol; Bolter)
1 Razorback (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Twin-Linked Plasmagun)
1 Land Speeder Squadron @ 90 pts (Heavy Bolter x1; Typhoon Missile Launcher x1)
1 Land Speeder Squadron @ 90 pts (Heavy Bolter x1; Typhoon Missile Launcher x1)
1 Land Speeder Squadron @ 90 pts (Heavy Bolter x1; Typhoon Missile Launcher x1)
1 Predator @ 85 pts (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Autocannon; Heavy Bolter (each side))
1 Predator @ 85 pts (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Autocannon; Heavy Bolter (each side))
1 Predator @ 85 pts (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Autocannon; Heavy Bolter (each side))
Total Roster Cost: 2000
Updated Note: If you've really got to have some sacrificial AT units with meltaguns, pick up 2xIST units in Chimeras or Rhinos and call it a day.
Home Army Lists Space Marines Warhammer 40k » Rebirth of the Las/Plas Squad
Friday, November 06, 2009
Rebirth of the Las/Plas Squad
By
Stelek
Labels: Army Lists, Space Marines, Warhammer 40k
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44 comments:
<span>Sweet Jesus, that is ruthless. A bit skimpy on the squad sizes but in truth who cares? you've got six of those things and no get's hot to worry about?
and now for some math.....</span>
18 Autocannons (12 TL)
6 Las-Cannons
6 TL Plasmas (no Gets Hot)
9 Heavy Bolters
3 Typhoons
Plus the null zone to really screw with your opponent.....
Damn, good form.
Hmm, Wow, Definitely has longer range than John's Immolator army... I assume that the Idea of the army is:
1. Shoot
2. Shoot till u dead
3. Shoot again
4. Die in CC, then shoot what's left.
The amount of AP2 is good enough, but I'm just worried that when CC finally comes around, you might get smacked flat on the ground really fast... The mechanized part of the army will help with that, but it sounds too Iffy... need to do a crap load of playtesting and getting used to it. No template(s) also creeps me out, since template helps negate those shitty "to hit" rolls....
And here I was hoping you'd find a use for my las/plas marines gathering dust.
That's an awful lot of firepower. No CC ability, but I don't think it needs it.
So, glance Landraiders to death is the plan? I guess so long as you immobilize, you are good...
So you finally like razorbacks! They are nice to have.
Is six lascannons enough against AV 14?
Certainly interesting, like Chaosgerbil asked, how do you deal with AV 14?
Do you think it has enough shots to deal with mech spam a la John's Immos? Maybe I am just reading it with my horrible rolling in mind...
I do like the amount of cheap units that who cares which you kill, it doesn't gimp the army.
If the CC gets there in any kind of numbers you are screwed.
I do love the razorbacks and have been trying to think of a way to make them viable for a while.
It's got a lot of firepower, and can certainly rip light armor spam lists a new one, but i really think the lack of melta is a problem, espicially against lists with lots of av 14. I'm thinking there might be some merit to adding some multi melta's, either by switching the dreds to MM/CCW setups, or the speeders to MM/HF. Either of those clears up 60 pts, which could be used to put a combi melta on each of the sarge's, giving you a bit more last ditch melta capability.
Alternativly, we could do it to both, spend 90 pts changing the termie librarian to vulkan, then spend the other 30 somewhere else.
Actually, the plan with land raiders is:
Go ahead, and get out.
No reason to overly worry about Raiders, as you are "buttoned up", as the saying goes.
Most lists with lots of AV14 have problems with lists with lots of vehicles.
If need be, you can swap 2 of the tacticals for 2 IST squads in Rhinos.
Personally, I don't think it's needed.
I think any list with lots of vehicles and lots of AV14 is worried about lists like this one--there's no "value" to get.
It's like trying to punch your way out of a wet paper sack.
I don't know, i think objectives are pretty valuable, and even if that unit you had controlling it wasn't that powerful, I'll trade the contents of my raider to prevent you from scoring it.
The only concern I have with this is that if you dropped it below 1750, you lose quite a bit of firepower versus how much armour or how much horde the enemy is still likely to bring. At 2000 points the common mech lists will be hurting at the bottom of turn one and crippled by the bottom of the 3rd. Looks good.
I got 6 of those to play under third edition, then fourth edition came out and they were illegal. and now they've been gathering dust wishing they were Predators. The army may not win, but at least I can feel like I'm trying something interesting.....
You can't fire the lascannon and the plasma guns if you move, am I correct?
Thanks!
Mike Guth
Mike: Correct. It's nice to have both against aggressive armies, and of course if you lose 1 weapon...you still have another.
Holy crap. A Marine list I actually like. Normally I just go slack jawed looking at special chars.. but this is pretty brutal.
I find the lack of meltaguns interesting. wtf is with the codex and not being able to take special weapons under 10 strong? That's such shit.
Have you thought about doing this with SW using 5 man grey hunter squads with a flamer or melta gun replacing the tacticals and a rune priest replacing the librarian? Losing combat tactics is a can be a pain but every squad is only 5 men and will fold in CC any way.
<span>Eddie: I have, but Null Zone imho makes the SM version superior. When you don't have CC beater units, you need every shot that lands to be a telling blow against things like Seer Council and Storm Shield units.</span>
Hmmm...Interesting. If I was going to do this in a Space Wolf form I'd go for something like this:
Rune Priest - 110pts
-Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane
-Chooser of the Slain
Dreadnought - 125pts
-x2 Twin-Linked Autocannons
Dreadnought - 125pts
-x2 Twin-Linked Autocannons
Dreadnaught - 125pts
-x2 Twin-Linked Autocannons
x5 Grey Hunters - 155pts
-Flamer
-Razorback w/ Lascannon, Twin-Linked Plasma Gun, Dozer Blade
x5 Grey Hunters - 155pts
-Flamer
-Razorback w/ Lascannon, Twin-linked Plasma Gun, Dozer Blade
x5 Grey Hunters - 150pts
-Flamer
-Razorback w/ Lascannon, Twin-linked Plasma Gun
x5 Grey Hunters - 150pts
-Flamer
-Razorback w/ Lascannon, Twin-linked Plasma Gun
x5 Grey Hunters - 150pts
-Flamer
-Razorback w/ Lascannon, Twin-linked Plasma Gun
x5 Grey Hunters - 150pts
-Flamer
-Razorback w/ Lascannon, Twin-linked Plasma Gun
x2 Land Speeders - 140pts
-Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer
x2 Land Speeders - 140pts
-Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer
x1 Land Speeder - 70pts
-Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer
Predator - 85pts
-Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsors
Predator - 85pts
-Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsors
Predator - 85pts
-Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsors
Of course I might drop the Chooser and give two more Razorbacks Dozer Blades. However that's just me loving the look and utility of the Dozer Blade. Driving straight into terrain to push the enemy off an objective and take it for yourself is something -I've- had to do several times anyway. I'd rather have a 1/36 of immobilizing myself when I do that.
I have nothing else to really contribute, besides the fact that I find this extremely intriguing as an army. If I do Space Marines, I may just do this army. Although I'll have to use Dozer Blades everywhere I can. I'm crazy that way lol
Seen something like this only he used Assault Cannon Razors and Auto/Las Preds and somehow fit in a 5 Man TH/SS with Lysander & Khan (Khan giving the Terminator Hit and Run?! Weird mix but it was interesting for "fun" play)
Think it has prospect but can fall flat when the Razors are a primary threat (to me anyway) and the Scoring also relatively easily dealt with.
Though I might be wrong, I love Typhoons so much now, can't hate facing them, lol.
The Termie unit in a Crusader, of course...so maybe minus a few things to fit that chunk in.
I thought up almost an identical list the other day. Except with assault cannons instead of las on the razorbacks. Ass cannons are better vs armor than las if you do the math. And ass cannons are great against infantry.
Normal non-twinlinked las cannon has a 11% chance of killing a land raider while a normal non-twinlinked ass cannon has a 14% chance of killing a land raider.
Are the HB/Typhoon Speeders there as opposed to MM/HF for more range + torrent of fire?
At first I thought the "competitive daemons" list would rip this list a new one. But then I remembered null zone... null zone just makes me wish daemons had some sort of anti-psycher :[[
Smurfy: Yeah, fun definitely. For 8 zillion points, anything is fun. ;)
Tyler: Indeed. Null zone is there because I'd rather have it and sub in IST's with meltaguns than give up my range advantage. Which seems to be lost on people.
Yes Warr. See what I just...said. lol
Matt: Ass Cannons are great, until you fight real battles with real dice. Then they aren't so awesome. Want my math and experience on that one? ;)
Any reason you're running the Land Speeders with missiles rather than melta? It seems like that'd be an easy way to get mobile melta weapons, which the list lacks. You already have such an overhwelming preponderance of guns to shoot at MEQs and light vehicles that it seems like a natural place to cut some shots.
@Matt I think your math is off. A TL-AsC has a 6.52% chance of killing a Land Raider while a TL-Las has a 4.89% chance. I think you have the numbers for penetrating.
Either way the point stands, AsC are better than Las when they get to fire. But I believe the reason Stelek chose the Las Plas over the TL-AsC was just an issue of range. Imho the weakness of this list is an IG list that tries to fill the same role, since they can do it with either cheaper units or better units. So as a reaction to that weakness this list needs the range.
I think this list is pretty scary especially given the way the game is being played right now. A lot of armies right now are using transports to deliver their meltas into your face, but this list stops that. Transports have a tough time getting across the board when they are facing this kind of firepower. Go ahead and try to get your Chimera or Rhino within 12" of this army. That and the fact that there is no huge threat in this army, except the Razorback carrying the Librarian. My army for instance would just be wiped out by this kind of torrent because I rely on 24" range weapons (TL-AsC and MMs).
I also don't think this would have such a big problem with CC, since it can feed you a couple of units and then just torrent you to death. The fact that the troops are only 5 strong would also help this strategy. Once you charge these units they'll either be wiped away or running, leaving you completely exposed to the next round of shooting. Really cool concept!!
Not sure why the concept behind the list is unclear despite me saying it several times.
Range kills.
How's that?
Mobius covers it fairly well, hopefully that'll do.
The lists major weakness is a lack of cover busting. Hopefully it has enough firepower to make up for said lack.
Yes, a pathfinder army could probably weather the storm. In single elimination tournaments, great, good for you. In real tournaments, you will probably get one chance to face such a list (round 1) and then never face it again.
Well what to say?
I already tinkered with this kind of list before I came to this site and learned rbs aren't useful. And that you need dualpurpose mostly with flamers and multimeltas.
It's refreshing and encouraging that my personal approaches on sm-lists obviously isn't that bad in the end.
Now, where to find those damn las/plas razorbacks....
Normally, no. Takes a specific build to make Razorbacks work. Very, very, specific. lol
<span>I thought up almost an identical list the other day. Except with assault cannons instead of las on the razorbacks. Ass cannons are better vs armor than las if you do the math</span>
Like Stelek says, the AssCannon is great, in theory. So is sucking your own dick. In practise though, all you're doing is sucking a dick.
The calculator might suggest that Assault Cannons can penetrate AV14 and blah blah blah, and they can indeed do that, especially if you spam them. Problem being, of course, that a lascannon will pretty much auto-damage AV10-12 from 48" away. What AV do the majority of vehicles in 40K have?
Have you considered using Vindicators rather then predators in that list? We have a memeber of oiur group that uses Razorback spam list with Vindies and he does quite well. Of course the reason it is not seen as much is that Marine lists do have mobile melta (something some other armies would dearly love) and as has been mentioned Guard play Las spam so much better. Razor spam is not a new concept. I'm not that fond of the list. In the end it is just six lascannons. DE can do Raider spam and as much damage with faster skimmers. I need convincing ... I wouldn't build this list.
Against pathfinder-heavy lists couldn't you just trundle across the table and tank shock them off the board?
@paul_s: the army has plenty of AP2 firepower, enough that I don't really think that vindicators are needed, especially considering that replacing the predators with vindicators will reduce the total number of vehicles that you have, which is never a good thing in this kind of list.
I played around with this after seeing it.
I dropped the Dreads, and added 5 TH/SS Termies in a LRR. This cost me a Land Speeder, and the other 2 were equipped differently. All the Speeder changes were based on points, not sure I liked it.
The LRR has a Multi-Melta on it and can carry the Librarian as well. I might play around with it a bit more see what I can come up with. It does look very good as is though.
Clay
See the previous thread re: single Land Raiders.
I like the list better with space wolves, you trade in combat tactics for a cc weapon, counterattack, acute senses, and the chance to take a special weapon.
I don't understand why you don't support razorbacks in different lists but you spam so many here.
Because Razorbacks, like all Rhino-type vehicles, suck unless you spam them. That's what he means when he says "<span>Takes a specific build to make Razorbacks work. Very, very, specific." "Specific" means "spamming them and having other vehicles to make up for whatever the RBs can't do". Like templating stuff.</span>
NB: Whirlwinds can't be spammed and therefore suck arse.
That is...interesting. I'd initially worried about the whole 'AV14' thing, since you don't have enough lascannons to kill them. Marines will never have enough to get the job done, BUT you can just block Land Raiders off objectives.
I have to say the firepower here to lighter vehicles is a bit worrisome. I've occasionally thought about running the las-plas razorback.
I think the lack of flamers is a bit worrisome, or at least a bit counter to what I'm used to.
Keep us posted on testing it. I admit curiosity in how it'll work out. If nothing else, it's marine mech spam, and ought to be interesting.
I've been running this list (with minor variations) for about 6 weeks now. I choose a pair of vindicators over a trio of predators, TL-AsC over Las/Plas on the Razorbacks, and 2 pairs of MM over 3 Typhoons on the Speeders, mostly because I was willing to play the 24 inch game, instead of 48. Precisely because the whole 'melta is king' sentiment means that most lists need to be within 12 to be effective against that much armor. Sitting at 24 against those lists is almost as good as 48.
My experience has been a bit mixed. I've won most of the games I played with it, but only by very narrow margins. It's also a fairly unforgiving list. One moderately good turn on your opponent's part and enough of your armor is cracked open that you basically fight a losing batttle. The worst loss I had was against a marine list where I made a horrible play mistake in dawn of war (and knew it the instant the round turned) and pushed too far forward, resulting in the loss of several vehicles in one turn to assault terminators out of a crusader.
AV14 is a pain, but not too bad. Against a 6 Leman Russ army with aircav support, the combination of assault cannons and vindicators managed to kill 5 of the 6, while the dreads kept a unit of Hydras stunned and the Speeders worked down the Vendettas.
The biggest downside is Annihilation missions. Of the majority of games I won, I would have lost miserably had they been kill points. Usually in the neighborhood of 10-14 lost to 4-5 gained. That's one place where the 48 inch version of the list would probably come out a bit ahead.
This concept might actually work better for Dark Angels since they can take a meltagun or plasmagun in the five man tactical squads.
G
Steven T said:
<span>This concept might actually work better for Dark Angels since they can take a meltagun or plasmagun in the five man tactical squads. </span>
Reply:
Uhh, play 40k much?
DA preds cost more.
Their razorbacks don't get las/plas.
They don't get CML's, they get TML's, which are crap.
They also don't get Rifleman dreads.
And Da Libs? Don't even get me started...
An impressive Marine list - its one of the most focussed and certainly the most shooty SM lists I've seen.
However since YTTH is about putting 40k lists and tactics through the fire, I wouldn't be contributing if I didn't say I see two problems with it. The first one is that 6 lascannons on light vehicles are not cutting edge anti-tank, and the list lacks Melta (I see there's an edit about adding some IST with melta to make up for this, which is a good stop-gap solution).
The second is that this can be done better with at least one other army - here is my equivalent Guard army list, with no fancy tricks or ordnance, but a definite edge vs the marine version.
2000 Guard list - The Firing Squad
HQ
Company command Squad – 3 Meltaguns +Heavy Flamer
Chimera Multilaser Heavy Flamer
Troops
Veterans 3 Melta + Chimera Multilaser Heavy Flamer
Veterans 3 Melta + Chimera Multilaser Heavy Flamer
Veterans 3 Melta + Chimera Multilaser Heavy Flamer
Veterans 3 Melta - Ride Valkyrie
Fast Attack
2 Valkyries - Multiple Rocket Pods + 2 Heavy Bolters + Multilaser
2 Vendettas - 3 Twinlinked Lascannons + 2 Heavy Bolters
2 Vendettas - 3 Twinlinked Lascannons + 2 Heavy Bolters
Heavy Support
2 Hydra Flak Tanks - 2 Twinlinked Longbarrelled autocannons, Heavy Flamer
2 Hydra Flak Tanks - 2 Twinlinked Longbarrelled autocannons, Heavy Flamer
2 Hydra Flak Tanks - 2 Twinlinked Longbarrelled autocannons, Heavy Flamer
2000pts on the dot, a sickening amount of direct firepower at ranges up to 72' and a good amount of anti-horde flamers for whatever makes it past the fire-storm.
I mean this cricitism entirely constructively; to make the OP's Marine list competitive with something like this would probably require capitalising on their strengths by adding some MM/HF speeders.
Looks eerily like a list I posted a month or so ago.
I think everyone is aware the IG has a big edge on AV12 spam and range.
The Lascannons in this list are nice, but are not intended for raider hunting. Land Speeder, Rhino, and Chimera busting is about all one should reasonably expect.
Of course, this list against that list--it's all about who goes first, as is often the case with mech forces with very long ranges.
That the right price listed for the predators?
I've got no SM codex with me but that makes them 30 points or so cheaper than the equivalent CSM predator...
Yep, the price is correct. The equivalent CSM Predator is 100 points
Hmmm something else that I've thought of for this. Space Wolves may not be ideal, but I keep wanting to try. You know, just to go at this list from other angles. It doesn't take advantage of all the advantages the Wolves get, but... well I'm trying to exercise my list-fu skills.
Here goes:
Razor Wolves
HQ:
Rune Preist - 110pts
-Chooser of the Slain
-Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane
Elites:
x5 Wolfguard - 185pts
-x4 Combi-Flamers
-Razorback
-Lascannon, TL Plasma Gun
x5 Wolfguard - 185pts
-x4 Combi-Flamers
-Razorback
-Lascannon, TL Plasma Gun
x5 Wolfguard - 180pts
-x3 Combi-Flamers
-Razorback
-Lascannon, TL Plasma Gun
Troops:
x5 Grey Hunters - 150pts
-Flamer
-Razorback
-Lascannon, TL Plasma Gun
x5 Grey Hunters - 150pts
-Flamer
-Razorback
-Lascannon, TL Plasma Gun
x5 Grey Hunters - 150pts
-Flamer
-Razorback
-Lascannon, TL Plasma Gun
x5 Grey Hunters - 150pts
-Flamer
-Razorback
-Lascannon, TL Plasma Gun
x5 Grey Hunters - 150pts
-Flamer
-Razorback
-Lascannon, TL Plasma Gun
x5 Grey Hunters - 150pts
-Flamer
-Razorback
-Lascannon, TL Plasma Gun
FAST ATTACK:
Land Speeder Typhoon - 70pts
-Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer
Land Speeder Typhoon - 70pts
-Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer
HEAVY SUPPORT:
x3 Long Fangs - 100pts
-x2 Multi-Meltas
-Rhino
x3 Long Fangs - 100pts
-x2 Multi-Meltas
-Rhino
x3 Long Fangs - 100pts
-x2 Multi-Meltas
-Rhino
----------------
You may point out that those Long Fang squads are very small and vulnerable. This is true, and the points allow for them to be Missile Launchers as well as Multi-Meltas. Of course, take out their Rhinos, and you aren't shooting the Razorbacks. I considered just using Predators but decided against it. If I want range, I'd give the Long Fangs missile launchers and be better than an Autocannon. If I want a mid-feild deterrent, I'll go with Multi-Meltas and let them lead the way. Or else hide and wait, whatever I need.
The Land Speeders are there to help deal with whatever needs dealing with. Not much to say there.
I guess it's time for my thoughts to get torn down now lol
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