Now, the Good Point. Finally something pointed out to me over there that doesn't get my blood pressure up. :p
Goatboy wrote a useful (if short) article, here.
First, you should go read it.
Second, he makes a good point--but I think he's been blinded by the uniqueness of the SW Codex. Relatively few other armies can make a foot army work, because as he noted...most of the armies are OLD and don't have the efficiencies necessary.
SW can for two reasons: Very cheap troops, that aren't utterly useless one-hit wonders...and they have big 'fuck you don't get out of your transports' units that are affordable because the troops are so cheap.
The SW foot army is, if you haven't noticed, very similar to a Demon army.
What are the 3 key differences?
1) SW can, if they want to, mech up (and get in transports).
2) SW get meltaguns.
3) SW get to start ALL of their army on the board--or in reserve, if they want to.
I think I've been preaching these 'flaws' in the Demon Codex long enough for people to 'hear' me again--but every army needs these things.
SW on foot are a bitch to drag down--until you hit them with a Nob Biker army. Goes right through the whole kit in no time flat.
Marine stats are the reason why. You don't have real numbers (Guard, Dark Eldar, Tyranids in the redo) nor do you have mixed stats (Orks with T4, Eldar with I5) to beat the 'standard'. You ARE the standard. There's nothing really 'unique' about any of the chapters, other than a handful of special rules and color schemes. So, eventually, people will figure out how to beat you--but, if you are mechanized, you are quite a bit harder to beat because mech is inherently tough in 5th edition. For a few points you can have a much more impressive survivability rate. Killing 10 transports in a game isn't impossible, but killing 10 transports and 100 IG? Man, that shit IS impossible. Why does this matter? Here's why:
In my 5x5 scenario system, ANY army can compete--but in silly scenarios like Kill Points or One-Objective-Each...mech forces beat foot forces because in the end:
Two marines = 1 Rhino.
It's really hard to run a foot army and say 'my 4 GH packs are better because I have part of a 5th GH pack while the other guy has 4 Rhino-mounted GH packs'.
They can drive through you to contest your objective (Fritz loves this in his Eldar, which while it works does make the game a bit...dull, yes? oh...you win because your 7th Wave Serpent runs over here at game end and contests my objective while you have yours...yay!) and blow away select portions of your force while you make run moves trying to get into range next turn...and the jerk embarks his guys and drives off! Not so fun then. lol
For the record: I own a hell of a lot of armies, almost all of them are semi-mech (I think only my Dark Eldar qualify as 'full' mech). It's all about balancing your force. Yes, you can overload someone's weaksauce anti-tank with a netdeck 12 Chimera list--and if they bring a bunch of anti-tank to punish you, what then? Isn't it better to have balance in your army list AND army style? I use a bunch of mech in some army builds, and use mech sparingly in others. Check out my Chaos, and my Tau. Worlds apart, yes?
Each army type has a strength--and a weakness. SW can do foot because they have units fast enough to reach out and catch you. Imagine if their Thunderwulf Cav could pack meltaguns? Man, that'd be crazy--but you get the point.
A semi-mech SW list is still superior to a foot SW list, because the semi-mech SW list can deliver with mech in a far greater pattern on the board than a foot army can.
Foot armies are pawns.
Mech armies are knights carrying pawns.
Which is more dangerous?
Home Analysis Warhammer 40k » One Good Point, One Bad Point: Part II
Monday, November 23, 2009
One Good Point, One Bad Point: Part II
By
Stelek
Labels: Analysis, Warhammer 40k
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11 comments:
Mmm seafood.
On a more serious note, things are looking up with regards to troop choices. I for one am very excited about what possibilities the nid dex will bring.
Just to note, Goatboy's list does have all Troops in Rhinos. I think his article doesn't really advocate going foot over going mech, just that more Troop numbers = good. That could easily be more Marines in Rhinos, just as much as more Marines on foot. So there is the explicit "take more troops" which he suggests (and ironically, doesn't put into the list), and an implicit "it's okay if they're foot troops", but I think the latter just comes because his example was Space Wolves. He could easily have made a heavy-troops army example for SM or CSM with a lot of Rhinos, without changing his article at all, so I think that he's not really saying "go foot". Just "go with more numbers", whether that means foot troops or mechanized.
I do agree that SW is the only real army out there that can do foot. The Wolf Cav really allows you to do a rolling assault which lets foot do its job, get across the table and be annoying.
I've been known to advocate 2 troop choices, but in that SW set up, I have 3 with a Wolves squad. I could drop the Iron priest (tempting) and drop another one in there too. Also I consider the LF more guys as they are more foot walking jerks on the table top.
I think the time of a large amount of guys is coming with Nids on the Horizon as well as changes to BA codex that keeps floating around. More guys mean that you can commit guys to dying a hell of a lot easier and still have some punch to win the game. It makes it a hell of a lot more fun for me too. But hell - the walking army is killed by Nob Bikerz. Wolf Cav, while good, cannot survive getting hit by Nob bikerz at a full 10 man with a warboss. You can either dump a bunch of wounds on the Warboss and hope his Str 10 dies, or try to hope for the good "rends" you might get. All and all it is an uphill battle. Versus TH/SS termies, the Wolf Cav should win in the end but versus Nob bikerz, I will have to shoot and JoTWW them in hopes to take out the pain boy and start to dump wounds on them.
And yeah, it was a short article. I plan on some more army list style articles in the coming months as I break down some thoughts on the 5th edition set up and how a cool, fun army can still win the game without having to go out and buy a ton of terrible Tank kits (Chimera you suck!!!).
M&P: The problem with 'better' troops choices are the armies left behind are already very numerous--I really don't like having to play against dumbass Marine armies endlessly. I like playing against Xenos. If the new Codices have troops that can kill things (remember the 5 gaunts you could 'upgrade' with rending claws shenanigens just a codex ago?) where now they are just support for stuff that can--it really leaves those older Codices in the cold. Except Sisters, who will still own face.
Sorin: I've played against several SW lists full of troops choices on foot. Pretty sure I own one, and John owns one. They are effective, after all. I think running a bunch of punching bags on foot without a way to punch is a mistake though.
Goatboy: Vulkan Thunder Shield Termies destroy Thunderwulf Cav fairly well. Most of the IG kits are ass. New Hellhound is allright, and the Gunships are excellent. Hate the Soviet BT-series Chimera and WWI/Indiana Jones Russes with a passion though. Problem with Orks is they can't stop vehicles. If Nids can stop vehicles with their troops--man, that is really going to change things. It all depends if the all cav army I've been seeing makes the cut. If so, bad news indeed. Effective troops that are cav? Oh man...
I agree - the lack of adequate vehicle destruction is the key to making an army work. Nothing is worse then throwing 20+ str 9 attacks and hoping for a six to hit and then a six to actually do something.
I am hoping nids will fix some things, but I haven't seen the codex yet at all. Will see if BA is any good too, but it again is just more 3+ armor save jerks. I would just like to see a cool codex that isn't based on humanity. It would be neat. So here is hoping for Nids to be cool.
That would be a serious change if nid troops could take out armour, I don't know how they'd do that with gaunts, it seems terribly out of character. I rather think that they will remain fodder/anti-infantry but that other choices will become more powerful in that regard. I'm imagining carnifexes, warriors, zoanthropes and maybe even biovores popping tanks at range whilst the critters close in to chew up what becomes stranded. It will be the points values that determine how many troops a nid player takes, principally they'll be a price drop, so the rumours say. This would allow you to take more troops but not sacrifice what is still necessary to do the job.
There are other potential foc changes or options too for troop slots. Will warriors be allowed to take up troop slots if a particular hq is chosen? Where will genestealers sit? There are so many rumours...
As for the codex creep, this is inevitable, but I don't think that should stop the march of progress regarding the rebalencing of each foc slot's effectiveness. For all those armies that are left behind...well it's bad game design. At the very least we should be getting FAQs which rebalence armies in a small way. This is hardly any more work given that they are play testing anyway...a price drop here, a melta rule there and you're done.
This would actually kill two birds with one stone. On the one hand you keep old armies viable and on the other you test your new codex against the old, but still effective, codex. After all, there is no point in play testing the new IG dex against the current nid dex...god forbid that GW create a stable game system...
M&P: Not in GW's business model, that will never happen. You are supposed to "improvise" melta weapons or something.
heh, GW business model :D
Yea we just alter the rules in our local for friendlies
It's a horribly unconfirmed rumor, but there's been talk that 'Nids in CC will recieve some sort of reduction to enemy AVs/penetration bonus, so that may explain how they intend their troops (probably Genestealers/Hormagaunts more than others) to actually hurt tanks. Fluff-wise, 'Nids basically feed their troops into tanks hoping to do any amount of damage (jam a track, plus an exhaust vent, etc), it wouldn't be entirely out of character. And, as Stelek points out, if your troops can't damage vehicles, your army is probably shitty.
Well that idea makes me quite horny. We shall have to wait and see :D
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