As requested, why don't I umm "put up or shut up".
So, here's a few articles published regarding Drop Pods.
Search is your friend.
Black Templar.
Drop Pod advice, like don't take scout bikes. :p
Don't believe me? What about John?
How about these two?
List advice.
The list, created and raring to go.
See, a list with a lot of everything but no focus doesn't work. The game you are looking for with a scattered 'everything' feel is Flames of War.
As some examples of 'battleforce' armies:
Avatar, 1 Serpent, 1 Vyper, 1 Wraithlord, and foot troops galore.
2 Drop Pods (without Sternguard in them), a couple vehicles, foot troops.
See the theme here?
Having bits of everything doesn't help.
In Flames of War, having recon/artillery/air/anti-air/infantry/anti-tank, all of these things help immensely, as all of these things have distinct roles that other units cannot fill.
In 40k, the world is quite a bit simpler. Monsters, Mech, Foot, Fast, Slow, Heavy Firepower, Light Firepower. Some have multiples (Dakka Fexes, for example) but if you don't theme your army around a core concept (is it mech, is it monsters, is it fast, etc) then armies built around those core concepts will ruin your day.
It's not easy to beat a rock army in Flames of War, but it's possible. Tanks don't like mass infantry armies and vice versa, oddly enough. The same isn't really true in 40k. You need to understand that in Flames of War, either you can kill tanks and infantry--or you can't. With 40k, you usually can at least try...but it's not so black & white. If you have a Pak40, Firefly, or Pather; odds are you can kill just about any tank in the game. Think of it as a really long range multimelta. If you have only autocannons, sure you can kill just about any tank in the game--but as in Flames of War, in 40k glancing is pretty much fail. So you can't kill just about any tank in the game with a single good round of shooting.
I'm using this to illustrate the point--if you bring a couple vehicles, a couple drop pods, and foot troops--you are running a foot army, because once the drop pods come down, you aren't mobile anymore (and you were never mech, either). This means forces that can beat infantry, which these days is everyone and their grandma, well...they can beat you. People don't seem to understand that infantry are weak in real life, and are weak in 40k (now). A dose of reality in a sci fi fantasy game? Sure, why not. Drop Pods are cool, and when built properly--are very capable armies. You can stay off the board to beat pretend Drop Pod armies, the ones with a couple of units podded up. If you stay off the board against the Black Templar or SM armies shown above, you are giving up objectives which is 2/3 of the game. Can you recover and take them when the drop pods and what they disgorge aren't on your table edge, but are sitting in the middle of the battlefield? Possibly, if you have a mech force. Unlikely, if you have a foot army.
That's what drop pods (usually) excel against. They don't do so well against mech forces, especially mech forces with fast or cheap transports (so, pretty much everyone now).
Against Fast transports, they just move away from you and defeat you in detail. It's very hard to play against, but if you castle up--you can. Against cheap transports, all you do is put yourself in position to blow up some 35 point rhinos and then get blown to shit by the other guys army, usually where he wants.
Anyway, the point is--you need to focus your army in 40k. You don't need to in Flames of War, and it's dangerous to do so. Key difference between the two game systems. If you focus on drop pods (or sternguard), you can bring a very nasty list along. If you don't, you've re-invented the noobslayer. Not really what you want to do, is it? Beating noobs isn't difficult, no matter what list you bring. Beating vets in competitive environments with crap half-assed unfocused lists? That's hard. Also the 'competitive environment' rarely happens, but that's been discussed elsewhere. Like here.
Home Analysis Warhammer 40k » Drop Pods: The YTTH Way
Friday, November 06, 2009
Drop Pods: The YTTH Way
By
Stelek
Labels: Analysis, Warhammer 40k
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24 comments:
What do you think about mech lists + some pods? We've been playing alot of 1750 recently and I've been running..
Librarian with termi armor + SS
2x rifleman dread
5 TH termis in redeemer with MM and EA
2x tacticals in rhinos with flamer/MM
2x HF/MM speeder
3x vindicator
This is my normal 1500 list + 2 rifleman dreads. I've been finding that the land raider runs ahead alone (the speeders usually stay safe or movement block). I've had some really bad luck recently but I'm beginning to find the LR needs more support so I'm considering running this instead at 1750..
Vulcan
2x MM dread in drop pod
5 TH termis in LRR with MM and EA
1x tactical in rhino with melta gun + MM
1x tactical in drop pod with melta gun + MM
2x HF/MM speeder
3x dakka pred
One LR does not a list make.
I think sadly the only real mech + pod list is a Kantor list with Sternguard in said pods. It needs to be built very specifically, or it won't work. Kantor hurts about as much as he helps most armies.
Why does everyone want to only throw 1 landraider with 5 TH/SS terminators into their list?
I've found you either need double that or nothing. 1 LR is going to get shut down so easily.
I know that I should be bringing 2 LR full of termis but call me stubborn because I am >.>
1 raider works reasonably well in my 2k vulkan army. It's main purpose is to draw fire, limit my opponents mobility and, most importantly, act as a magnet for melta units, who then procede to get gunned down by dreds, dakka preds, speeders, and tac squads in rhino's. The land raider and its content rarely if ever kill their points worth, but thats not what their there for. If it draws their attention till turn 2 or 3, forces them to sacrifice much of their melta to take it down, and lets me gain a positional advantage for the late game, it's worth it.
But yeah, if you want to just ram a raider down your opponents throat every game, you need more than 1.
@Tim - because taking two land raiders and 10 assault terminators means half your army is tied up in two mega-units. Some people don't like that. The ammount of support you can give those two units drops drastically, particularly if you're playing at less than 2000 points. If those two units do well, you'll probably win. If your opponent gets lucky or is skilled and knocks them out early, you'll probably not do well.
For instance, with both LRC and 10 AT, I can fit a TermiLib, 3 tac squads, and 2 dakka preds at 1850. That's less support than I want. For comparison, if I take only one LRC and 5 AT, I can fit two rifleman dreads and 3 mm/HF speeders in their place. This changes the LR/ATs to be less of a major threat (because they can be stopped more easily), but increases the number of other threats in the army, and should the LR/ATs survive, they can be supported more. I now have more long-range firepower and am slightly more comfortable against hordes and such. Not as pure, possibly not as hard as the rock of two units of terminators, but I feel more flexible. Two or nothing may be the way to go, but I've found taking only one can provide additional options not found in either end.
Single land raiders are gifts imo.
How do you feel about sternguard in Rhinos?
To the right armies, two land raiders are gifts. If you want to focus fire and effort on it, fine - with a 1-LR army you're likely to get it, but its loss doesn't cripple you. In a 2-LR army, especially with the preponderance of meltaguns popping up in opponent's armies, losing both can be crippling and is likely in many cases.
Maybe this is just me rallying against eggs/basket syndrome. If you take LRs, then it seems you must take two, but they're so expensive it practically detracts from the rest of your army. Less units = worse, as Stelek mentions against Nob-biker armies. But since taking only a single one is a gift, it seems if you don't want to go all out you take none. But then you're not using those nice assault termies. It's a connundrum.
So, that would be...armies built entirely to kill raiders (and unable to kill anything else), armies run foolishly, and so...one or two armies, really.
Preponderance? I've been dealing with 20 MG armies for years now. Catch up already. 2 land raiders is still a bitch.
It is indeed a conundrum.
Single Land raiders are only gifts when you give them away. Throw it out by itself to get swarmed by all the melta in your opponents army, and yeah it's useless. But, you don't need to use it that way.
The key to playing a single raider list is using it more cautiously, in a way that enhances the effectiveness of the rest of the army. No one wants to put anything important within charge range of the raiders content, since it will likely die. Using this, you can advance with the raider and a large portion of your army, and use them together to gain control of the midfield. With smoke and rhino's to give it cover, it can usually last till turn 2 or 3, while either pulling enemy melta units into the killzone you have set up around it, or letting you gain good position for the late game. At that point, either throw it at the enemy them up, or disembark the termies and have them charge, while pulling the raider back to act as a big contesting rock in the late game.
FYI, the list i play with this is
- Vulkan
- 5x TH terms in LRC w/ MM and EA
- 2x dred w/ MM, CCW, Storm Bolter
- 3x 10 man tac squads w/ Flamer, MM, and combi melta in rhino's with dozers
- 3x MM/HF Speeders
- 3x Pred w/ AC, HB Sponsons
@chris. Most armies have sacrificial AT units. In the list you posted the LRC is over 600 points and the main (by a long shot) single threat in your list. Even if I have to "waste" 400 points of AT to strand that nasty CC unit 24" away, I will, because nothing else in your list needs melta to be taken out. Without the threat of assault from those termies, your army just doesn't have the range to compete, and without the LR, the termies will never charge.
I could see the list having more problems in 5x5 games, but all the clubs i play at run 5th ed standard missions.
In Kill points, i come out ahead in that exchange, and am in a good position to make it hard for you to catch up.
In objectives, I'll have a positional advantage and with my dreds, melta armed tac squads, and speeders in position you'll have trouble pushing me off the objectives in the center.
In bases, most of your fast units will have been expended taking out the raider, meaning that at least it's a tie. Given how hard that mission is to win anyway, I''ll take this.
Killing units is only a means in 40k, don't lose sight of the end. I'm not tying to kill your whole army, I'm trying to win the game, and the raider helps me do it.
Don't get me wrong, dual raider lists are damn good, and after i expand my nids after the new codex i will either make it so my marines can run one, or upgrade my tau to be more stelek like. Played smart though, single raider works.
Not really, Chris.
People seem to think 'Stelek' lists run locally don't work in the basic missions. They work just fine there, primarily by tabling inferior lists. Such as single land raider lists.
What's this Kantor pod + mech list?
I'll deal with it later. Have had a couple out of state friends last night and today, not much time for blogging.
What about one drop pod in a mech / cavalry combo SW list?
What's it for? Gifting?
I believe the technical term for what Grey Hunters in Drop Pods do is "Meltafailing". They fall from the sky, plant two Meltagun shots into a vehicle, then fail. Of course, everyone thinks that because Grey Hunters get 2 Meltaguns per squad the most obvious thing to do with them is Drop Pod them, little realising that throwing 200pts of scoring unit at a 30-50pt vehicle is silly, especially considering the Space Wolves Codex works at it's best when your Troops are min-maxed.
I once fought a marines force that dropped 3 dreads and 3 tacs 1st turn. It was hairy, as they were flamer marines and las dreads. But thx to that kroot bubble I managed to not melt in the face of all that dakka and that sorta made the marines dude lose his footing a bit.
I'd however won't fear 6 of these guys... All they'd be doing 1st turn is roasting kroot. And I'll try making the Dpod saves if they so choose to melta over them. =P
These guys I mean MM/HF dreads.
Is that the only way you guys think drop pods do anything? Suicide melta attacks?
Chaosgerbil:
I find 4 uses for standard drop pods.
Feints.
Noobslaying.
Dread assault spam.
Sternguard.
Is there another use I haven't found yet? Not sure.
<span>I find 4 uses for standard drop pods.
Feints.
Noobslaying.
Dread assault spam.
Sternguard.</span>
In other words feints, Meltacide, Meltacide, and Combicide.
Or the aforementioned penning in of silly people who castle in corners. If you had enough of them you could probably do the "Kroot infiltration" trick against people who go all-reserve.
They also make very attractive jack-o-lanterns, and can be used as BDSM sex toys.
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