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Hey,
Running through archives and found an old arguement about tank shock and
star engines. I didnt see a resolution to it, and I tried the legendary
search function and found bugger all, so thought I'd present the thought,
such as it is:
The full text from the Eldar FAQ:
Q. The star engines description says the vehicle may move an extra 12" 'in
lieu of shooting'. Does this mean that they cannot make this extra move if
they are unable to shoot for other reasons (such as being shaken). Also,
when is this move executed - in the movement or shooting phase?
A. As long as the vehicle is allowed to move that turn, and does not shoot
or embark/disembark troops, it may use its star engines. This means that it
can use them when shaken, but not whilst stunned. This extra move of up to
12" is executed during the Shooting Phase.
That seems fairly solidly to state that its treated as additional
movement, in the shooting phase.
The tank shock rule states:
"When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to
attempt to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally. This is an
exception to the rule that enemy models cannot be moved through"
1 The FAQ quite clearly states that you can use the star engines after
moving flat out. (which is fair...otherwise what purpose do they serve?)
2 I see nothing there that makes it incorrect to tank shock using star
engines. Star engines allow you to move up to 12" in a straight line in
the shooting phase. Tank shock (and ramming though that ones a touch
trickier, its rule requires 'at the highest speed it is capable of', which
is questionable) is simply a movement option available to tanks.
There is nothing to suggest the movement by star engines is any different
from normal movement other than the lack of pivoting. Since tank shock and
ramming require no pivoting (explicitly so) that certainly isnt an issue.
Wherein lies your objection?
-Colin
Reply:
Actually, read the entire tank shock rule--it does allow pivoting, explicitly so.
Tank shock and ramming aren't the same thing.
Tank shock is done during the movement phase.
Where is the Codex provided exception that allows you to tank shock with Star Engines during the shooting phase?
Since it doesn't exist, you can move but you cannot tank shock (or ram) during the shooting phase.
I play Eldar. I'd love for the Star Engines to have a use, but they don't.
Home Analysis Eldar Warhammer 40k » Tank Shock, Star Engines, and Yay.
Tuesday, October 27, 2009
Tank Shock, Star Engines, and Yay.
By
Stelek
Labels: Analysis, Eldar, Warhammer 40k
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11 comments:
1 Tank shock allows pivoting prior to the movement, in a sense so do star engines, though I concede that you cant pivot during the shooting phase with them.
2 Where is the rulebook statement that tank shock happens in the movement phase? Its included in the vehicle rules, not the movement rules. It is stated under tanks, and says only that "when moving a tank, the player can..." there is no "when moving a tank during the movement phase a player can..."
The only reference I can see, which you could interpret as implying that tank shock can only be done in the movement phase is the line "if the tank moved slowly enough during the tank shock attack, it may fire as normal during the shooting phase" I would argue that this simply means that if star engines did not forbid shooting, you would be able to fire in addition to the additional move (although it would get murky)
3 They still have a use, though you may not like the uses :)
-You can use them in conjunction with moving flat out, this is implicitly stated in the FAQ, this gives you 36" of movement, outstripping anything else in the game (unless you count teleport or re-deepstrike units) which is a good thing, though whether they're worth the points for it, arguable.
-I use them on one serpent, mostly for providing cover saves / assault denial AFTER my units have shot (so they dont impinge on the line of sight of my shooting unit, but they still move into position to block charge and/or give a cover save at the end of my shooting.) Additionally, since the serpent can move flat out and then use the engines, it will have its cover save while providing the cover save to others, so your falcons can move six and let rip, and still have a cover save (with a reroll...) during the following phase, heck if you're using eldrad, the serpent can come from behind the falcon (within 6 where it gets fortuned at start of turn) to 15 or so inches ahead such that it gets its flat out cover, then star engine back to directly in front after the falcon has fired, yielding a 3+ save for the falcon (with reroll) and a 4+ for the empty serpent (with reroll)
I cant say that I'm too bothered by whether or not the final decision (if one is ever made and published) allows or disallows ramming and/or tank shock, though if they are disallowed its one more option off the table.
I can however say that if they were to 'further clarify' the existing FAQ and make it impossible to use star engines with flat out movement....THAT would upset me a great deal, I get a lot of mileage out of star engines, it'd be a shame to shelf them :(
Good luck with getting a 3+ cover save for Eldar vehicles. I can see your hull, goofball.
I've already argued this endlessly and don't really give a shit enough to do so again.
Hull is not front facing....is it? I'd never had anyone argue that one way or the other with me, I guess the arguement runs that the pilot seat and all of the hull running up to the turret is counted as front facing?
If so, I've been cheated against, and in turn have cheated...
Fair enough if you arent interested in arguing it, I've not found a convincing arguement for why it should not be allowed and I've found about equal places saying yay and nay, so I guess its just one of those issues.
You have other fish to fry, fair enough, thanks for the initial response.
You choose not to be convinced. The rules are what they are, poorly worded or not--the nonsense you talk about isn't allowed in GT's the world over, because GW has answered this question when asked by their TO's.
You know, what is the search feature for--I've covered this plenty.
I play Eldar, and I won't pretend like I can't grasp the rules so I can get an advantage.
The POTMS + SL crowd welcomes you with open arms.
Got nothing to do with other fish to fry, I've already baked this fish to death is what it's all about.
As far as the hull thing goes, hold two Eldar tanks up in front of your face, one behind the other. Can you 'see' any part of the hull when you go off center?
They can shoot you, and you don't get a 3+ cover save either.
As stated, I tried the search function and got jack all lol. My fail I suspect.
I'm A ok with the cover save being a 4+, its always been a dubious one, particularly for a fellow I met who had modelled his serpent in a banking turn....which looked very cool and had the added bonus when turned side-on of being a wall for line of sight.
This is not the same as smoke launchers. They explicitly state 'no weapons' and someone is deliberately interpreting that as "zero weapons, which if you add one to will be a single weapon because we didnt explicitly say 'no weapons ever'"
I dont want to drag you back into something you arent interested in re-hashing. So I'll ask for the other commentors, to spare you the time and kindly just point me at the location wherein I can find a clear summary of why tank-shock is not allowable using any moves that are not performed during the movement phase.
I have no knowledge of GT tournament rulings on the subject in the US. I'm told (possibly unreliably) that it is allowed in the UK tourneys, the source being a fellow I know who played in the most recent one with an eldar list.
Usually I would say to myself "If I'd written this, would I intend it to cover that."
In the case of the tank shock rules they dont read like they were written to exclude the possibility of tank-shock on movements that occur outside of the usual movement phase,
In the case of the star engine rules, they dont read like they were written to exclude ramming/tank shock, though they also dont read particularly like they meant to include it.
I could believe it either way, but in the absence of a clear rule, I'd have to wonder why you couldnt trigger your engines while pointed at troops?
If the reasoning is just 'its game breaking to be able to do so', thats fair enough, though I havent found it to be the case.
It's not allowed in:
Italy.
Germany.
France.
UK.
Japan.
US.
Spain.
I stopped asking after I hit those countries.
Deffrollas also aren't allowed to hit vehicles.
WHO CARES THOUGH IT'S ALLOWED IN MOZAMBIQUE!!!!!!
I did a search for star engines, found lots of things (sadly) lol.
You are correct, the rules were not written perfectly but I don't see why this is something anyone would want.
You realize with a strong mech force, all given star engines, you'll see this stupidity:
I move forward 24", I've got a 4+ cover save. Half my vehicles are immune to meltas, other half roll 2 dice and fuck you.
Next turn, I tank shock your army 8 times (assuming you have 3 units in a row) for 24 tank shocks.
I think do it again, but can only tank shock 1 unit each time. For 8 more tank shocks.
How long before your army is gone? Man, this sure is an exciting time to be Eldar. I can make you take multiple morale checks with multiple units, not just ONCE a turn but TWICE a turn. Yay! Oh, I broke you in the MOVEMENT phase? Then you autofail ALL MORALE checks, and when I shock you in the SHOOTING phase, you autorun. YAY FOR MY ELDAR! I've become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
What, this is fair and balanced? Why, so is getting punched in the nuts. Says so right here in my collector edition BBB, I can punch you in the balls anytime for being a douchebag. *wham*
Sometimes, you just have to realize what the rules don't say--you can't do.
Thank you.
I'm happy to acknowledge it is a very powerful capability, I'm comfortable with it being disallowed as game breaking.
Glad to hear they've banned it.
Apologies for burning your time.
stelek... I am glad you got banned on all the other forums... it forces you to condense your vitriol into one easy to find area. easy to read and enjoyable too. I still have a hard time accepting the deffrolla ruling, but yah, star engines getting a double whammy couldnt possibly be fair.
The one thing I never got about a lot of these "rules loop holes" is in any set off rules I've ever heard off if it doesn't say you can do something you can't. Even if it kinda makes sense that maybe you could or these two situations are similar, if it doesn't say you can you can't.
Ian, thats not the case though.
There are numerous examples where something isnt explicitly stated but it makes sense to be able to do it.
The point in this case is simply that the rules do state that you can
<span style=" font-family: Frutiger-Light;"><span style=" font-family: Frutiger-Light;">
<p>When moving a tank, the player can declare that the
<p>vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack
instead of moving normally.
Star engines cause you to move the tank.
The arguement has come up over what constitutes 'moving normally'.
Interestingly, if it said 'When moving a tank normally, the player can...' that would actually make it slightly more clearly against the use of star engines to tank shock.
I agree its powerful, quite probably too powerful.
Though i'm inclined to think the reason its too powerful is not so much the one suggested by stelek as for the fact that it makes last turn objective grabbing even easier, something we dont need.
As for steleks suggested:
You realize with a strong mech force, all given star engines, you'll see this stupidity:
I move forward 24", I've got a 4+ cover save. Half my vehicles are immune to meltas, other half roll 2 dice and fuck you.
Next turn, I tank shock your army 8 times (assuming you have 3 units in a row) for 24 tank shocks.
I think do it again, but can only tank shock 1 unit each time. For 8 more tank shocks.
I think the fact that whoever you're up against, even without you using star engines, just gave you 24 tank shocks, suggests that the extra 8 you get from your engines is probably unnecessary. And you can do those 24 right now under the current rules.
</span></span>
a little gem from later in the rulebook under walkers :)
<span style="font-family: Frutiger-BoldCn;">
<p>MOVING WALKERS
</span>
<span style=" font-family: Frutiger-Light;"><span style=" font-family: Frutiger-Light;">
<p>While other vehicles can only move in the Movement
<p>phase, walkers can also run in the Shooting phase and
assault in the Assault phase, just as infantry can.
<font face="Frutiger-Light" size="1"><font face="Frutiger-Light" size="1">
Emphasis added is mine.
</font></font></span><font face="Frutiger-Light" size="1">
</font></span>
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