This is as much an article for the internet as it is for the regulars down at my local shop, and the other local shops in the state. This will be stickied for a while to make sure everyone has a read. Note I'll be calling people out and making myself unpopular, but when you make me feel put upon--this is what you get out of me.
I've been watching how people react when I tell them they aren't playing competitively, both on the internet and in person at the local shop.
I've also been watching how few new kids come in to play at, well, any shop. Hard to compete with video games and grown men being jerks.
I have a switch inside, I can play in 'fun' mode where I am actively trying to have fun--and I can play in 'tournament' mode where I am actively trying to beat your face in.
I have been thinking about this for a few months now, ever since the first signs of discontent about my final tournament started bubbling over.
For the internet, the discontent is this: Despite being clearly labeled as a 'winner take all' tournament, I had nobody question that for the six months it was up. Now, however, that a few people have placed in it--I've been told they don't want to play because they don't think they can win, and I should institute another prize. Like best sportsman, best painted, etc. Well, there haven't been any 'best sportsman' awards in the tournaments so far this year. Why would there be one now? Best Painted is a judgement call. I nearly disqualified Edwin from winning Best Painted because of his incessant whining about his time spent on it and how he should 'obviously' win. I've nearly banned both Jimmy and Aaron from the final tournament for their poor sportsmanship when playing each other--I don't call you both friends so you can shame me with your behaviour. You are both adults. Act like you earned your place in the final tournament, and if you end up playing each other--then play each other. Don't complain in public, at me in private--just play. If you can have fun, that'd be awesome.
Now to my next problem--asking for a secondary prize. Hey, you realize this needs to come out of my pocket, yes? If you had a problem with this, you should have (A) told me in person, and (B) told me BEFORE you placed in the final tournament. I may not be the easiest person to get along with, but I run an impartial tournament. I won't show favor to my friends, or people I happen to like more than others. No, Hag, I am not going to put any more money into this tournament. If you guys are going to kill each other over a grand, then you aren't actually friends with each other and aren't even gamer buddies. This tournament, I've put a lot of time into--and nobody helped me in any way. Bitched and moaned a whole hell of a lot about everything that could go wrong in your games, and blame me for it. Don't bring unbalanced or inferior armies after I tell you they are one or the other--and then complain when you get smacked around. That's pretty much the whole bunch of you. You guys are supposed to be helping me build a community, not talking shit about me and each other behind my (and each others) backs like a bunch of schoolgirls.
Seriously, I've probably spent a solid week planning and running the events this year--and for what? I'm the asshole? I can't manage to get you guys to show up and help me finish all the terrain--one 4 hour period, once or twice a year. Is that asking too much? (Yes, I know some of you did and thank you for that--and obviously I am not talking to you). I need to pay you to show up, how mercenary are you? I thought I was a selfish bastard, self-centered beyond all reason--but I've seen better giving from a pack of hyenas than my local community. If I can even call it that--I got two bombshells dropped on my head this week:
1) I'm responsible for chasing the fun players away.
2) I'm specifically disinvited to play in the planetary empires game because I can't play gentlemanly.
Really?
Who has spent 2 grand on 'fun' armies specifically to loan out, teach, and play 'fun' games with? Which of you goes out of their way to find guys locally and try to get them into the shop for a game? I expanded my Fantasy army roster to include more armies with more variety simply so I could help show people how Fantasy (despite my dislike of half the armies) CAN be fun. You guys refuse to build 'fun' armies. Only tournament mode armies. I always offer an alternative army. Aaron loves playing my non-tournament armies, so he can get that satisfying 'crushed Andy' feeling I guess. Yeah buddy, those games aren't really fun for me but maybe someday you'll get my point. I didn't play my Americans in FoW because I enjoy losing. I actually enjoy your company. I wish you'd see that one of the most fun games I've ever played was with you. Ya jackass.
I've invested quite a bit of money trying to get Battletech going, and you guys decide to play Planetary Empires--the fail game? What, it's been long enough since the Warhammer Fantasy fuckup Empires 'campaign' you guys seem to have forgotten totally killed Fantasy in the store (thanks for that by the way, haven't been able to get a game for half a year because of that stupidity) because you guys simply cannot play "for fun". You say it, and when time comes to lose gracefully--holy crap, nobody can. I'm no silver martyr here, you know. I can be just as big a dickhead when I lose as the next American. I'm at least willing to take a big penalty, to take a risk. I got so much shit for playing Dark Eldar at -750 points and winning with them, it was supposed to be a test of my skills but apparently it just made me out to be an asshole. Sorry, kind of went off on a tangent there--why won't Battletech succeed? I've got the rules, I've got the figs--but you guys won't even show up to play it or even try?
Well thanks a whole lot for that vote of confidence. I know damn well why you don't want to play, you think I'm out to beat you in yet another game system--well guess what, if beating you in a miniatures game is so damaging to your ego, you should just take me outside and beat me until you grow up. The way I learned to play was by getting my ass kicked repeatedly. Yet many of you won't even play, as if it's a foregone conclusion that I'm going to win and it won't be fun. Kyle and Josh are the general exceptions, they are almost always willing to take it on the chin until they too get burned out by the 'must slay you' attitude. Unless I'm so desperate to play I'll take the impossible odds just so I can get a game in. Hey, who you think is driving the fun players away? Me? Interesting.
How much time and money are you guys investing trying to make a community? I see more people having fun at other stores than at the shop I prefer--and guess what? I go to those other stores. I'm not afraid of Hastur's, Endzone, Dragon's Keep, or Games People Play. All of them have better communities than Mind Games, despite my efforts over the past year to change that.
This brings me back to the internet, and the hating. Hey guess what, if you say you are here to have fun and you fucking aren't--I'm going to call you on your bullshit. If you are here to win and claim you are playing competitively and you fucking aren't--I'm going to call you on your bullshit.
I've had it up to here with the shitty competitive play, and that's what YTTH Con is here for. Don't think we don't want to have fun--I expect great sportsmanship and fun games. These two things are not mutually exclusive. You don't have to bring a death dealing army to have fun, do you? That's what's wrong with my local community, and the hobby as a whole. It's a sickness I've suffered from, and done my best to shake.
I enjoy playing just about everyone at my local store, but don't try and play me for a sucker. If you think you are awesome, great--I bet I can beat you way more than you can beat me. I bet I can have fun being beat by you way more than you'll have fun being beat by me. Sometimes, you have to be willing to have fun at the expense of winning. If I am, why the fuck aren't you? I'm the internets WAAC poster boy, to be whipped upon at will by every motherfucker--and I take it, every day I take the abuse, solely so I can get this point across:
Competitive + Fun = Synonymous. Man, our hobby is so fucked if I'm the voice of reason.
Maybe you guys should go read this. It's a very good article. It talks about all of us in great detail.
Home My Views Rants » Competitive vs Fun
Friday, October 09, 2009
Competitive vs Fun
By
Stelek
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51 comments:
You put $1000 of your own cash up for prize money?
... wow.
It'd be nice to get that kind of prize support over in Perth, Australia.
That article has long been one of my favorites.
There are always dickwads who play only to win. I play to have fun but I realize to have fun I have to have a simi competitive list or I will not be able to put up a good fight.
Its been said before, but I hate how it always seems like one or the other. Its possible to be competitive and have fun. Though usually the greater the stakes, the more likely people are going to be assholes.
Some of the most enjoyable games I've had lately have been called by our group, "Battle of the Bads". We come up with what we think are the most retarded lists or worste themed lists we possibly can and then hurl them full force at eachother. It's incredibly fun, but you really have to go expecting a lot of difficulty. I've won a few and lost a few, and regardless of how I come out it's always hilarious to see such wacky things on the field.
No one seems to mind when they lose doing this thing. But everyone gets all pissy and butthurt when they lose with one of their good lists. I was bummed when I lost my first game after a big winning streak but I wasn't about to go /wrist like some people look like they're about to.
Anyways, seems like a big part of the hobby's problem is ego. Gamer ego. Just like in any game. People don't want to accept that they aren't the best. They don't want to accept that someone else knows better than them. When you pick up someone elses list design or their tactics, it's like an admission that you aren't/don't know the best, and I think that bothers a lot of people on a deeper level.
Anyways. Lucky SOBs, I'd kill to have someone running Battletech around here.
It really is painful trying to startup a new game amongst entrenched.
Wow. A Grand of your own cash for stuff? We've had some people step up in my area and contribute to the Waagh, and I've done a little (...very little, mostly time issues, and a couple terrain days) and have an appreciation for what it takes to help people.
It's been years since I read Sirlin's site. It's good stuff, though.
I think a large portion of the community out there thinks fun and competition are mutually exclusive, but I'll maintain that some of the most fun games I've had were close, brutal slugging matches. For me, it's the thrill of the close match, often with someone I've been trying to train up.
I think part of it's also being able to laugh shit off. Yeah. Sometimes bad stuff DOES happen to your dice. I mean, I went through one Tourney where I managed to put about 5 bright lance penetrating hits into a freaking Soul Grinder, and never got better than shaken/stunned results. Other game? Total loss because he blew up tanks with single shots. I laughed it off as best I could, even though it was a little annoying to have terrible dice for a day in a tourney I paid to get into.
It's still people playing this hobby, at the end of the day.
I hope I can justify making YTTH con. Should be interesting.Iffy about it 'til I figure out the money I'm making and any other stuff with this new job, but still.
I loved this article. I tend to float between all the hobby shops in the area when I get a chance, and I gotta tell ya, I have never seen anybody running more "demo" type games with new gamers than Andy. Sure, if you come in to play with a ego the size of a whale... he will sure as shit deflate it. But you will be a better gamer afterwards.
The first time I met Andy he walked up and said "those war walkers are painted nice.. too bad they suck, I mean their stats suck." Sure I was at first all defensive because I had this squad of lovingly painted walkers, but he went on to explain it... and you know, totally spot on, and we can have a laugh about it as well. Truly, few people are as active (in our area) trying to build the gamer community.
My friends and I try to play for fun as much as possible. We specifically set up armies for maximum fun. For example, a swarm IG army firghting a Tyranid army...or a 10k point epic battle just because. Although we're prone to the occasional "I'm better than you" throw down.
You can always tell who's the most competitive player before you even play them. Depending on how much they talk about how their army is the best army ever, you can sort of gauge how much of a d-bag they are while playing. I generally try to avoid playing at local areas thanks to these role model players.
Fun and competitive are never mutually exclusive.
Your communitites atitude truly sucks. It looks like you are bending over backwards to create a fun enviroment and getting no credit. Shame on them.
I am curious why you think Americans are so poor in FOW. I have been successfully running them for over 5 years in both the mid and late war periods. Russians give me the most trouble, but they can be beaten.
<span>Yea, I have heard of many people who won't even attend tournaments because they think everyone is going to be an asshole at them. Honestly, some of the most fun games I have played have been at a tournament. And I have yet to run into "That guy". (which means its probably me)
</span>
Man Stelek its like I am reading something I wrote, I agree with you 100% on most of the genereric points. I can't even play DE at my store anymore NO one will play me if I do.
<chuckles> Truth be told, I've been warry of going in to Mind Games simply because of the competative aura it seems to have garnered. (The other reason being the cost of gasoline and the 30min drive vs the 5 min drive to Endzone)
Once I get my army in a reasonable state I'll probably drop by all the same. :p
You should move to Tennessee... we love beating on people, and getting beat on. Its a nice place.
But I often think of the Olympics when it comes to this game.
If Michael Phelps was to swim against me, I would most certainly stand a better chance if I got out of the pool and ran to the other end. Now, if he somehow convinced me to swim, and just pounded my face in over and over and over. If he swam at full bore while I struggled along, sooner or later I would get tired and quit. The same is with this game. If you cream me, and I am not looking to get creamed, over and over, after a while I won't want to play with you anymore.
Now, I don't know you. So all of the things you say here could be completely wrong. You may generally prefer to beat someone's face in over and over. It doesn't sound like you do. From here, it sounds like you know when to hold back the hounds and when to let them loose.
But that is a fine line as well. I firmly believe that if you are going to play, play to win. If you can beat me, and you are down 660 points, more power to you. I would want to talk to you after the game, and discuss why you won. I never think you should throw the game. Teaching a new player by playing a game is a great way to learn. Does that mean that you should make silly mistakes and make obvious plays, of course, but if you play badly he will play badly.
So then we come back to Michael. When he walks into a competitive enviroment don't you think he is there to win? And when he smashes the world records don't you think that he will go out for beers afterward. The point that I am trying to make is that there are times when you are supposed to go easy, and there are times when you are supposed to go all out.
Knowing when to do each is the tricky part. You sound like you have done a pretty good job of knowing. Everyone just needs to remember one simple thing. It. Is. Just. A. Game.
Remember that, and you will never have a bad game. Win or lose (because you can learn something from each).
Fizzics,
You clearly haven't read PTW. You clearly don't play to win. "<span>It. Is. Just. A. Game." is the cry-call of the scrub.</span>
Scrubs who bag on PTWers are simply the worst. You will never get any better because you rest on the crutch "well I just play to have fun". Good, please continue having fun - but don't you dare ever complain when someone with the PTW mentality floors you.
People who actually PTW (Play to Win) are generally the most congenial, honourable people around. Those are the people who, when they lose, will shake your hand and congratulate you because you've taught them something valuable. And when they win, they'll shake your hand and thank you, because you've taught them something valuable.
So many people thing that the PTW mentality means "beating the crap out of lesser opponents". This is wrong. PTW means taking every game seriously and playing to the best of your ability.
Some people thing that PTW means "never enjoying the game". This is wrong. People who PTW enjoy taking the game seriously and playing to the best of their ability.
If you rock up to a tournament and face a player that has min troops and 3 Land Raiders and you COMPLAIN - you are a scrub. People who PTW will know how to beat that. Those PTWers who don't beat it will come back next time much stronger.
There are exceptions (see the SF2T Akuma ban as described in PTW), but generally - if you have ever complained that someone had a 'hard' list, you do not PTW.
Being competitive is always fun. And I always play to win, and so do my friends. But things get different when money and prizes come into play. From personal experience of paying entry fees to tournaments, the competition is the same, but the emotions involved change dramatically. I always prefer to play simply for bragging rights and not for any serious prizes. And if entry fees are involved, then I can't blame people for not wanting to play in the tournament. If I know I am going to lose, then I dont' see the point of paying a fee to find out. But I also shy away from gambling because my attitude becomes overly agressive. So this is all probably a person problem lol
woah...since i made one of the comments to spawn this 'woe is me, ima go eat worms' post, please allow me to retort.
when i said you drove the noncompetitive/play for fun crowd away, i meant the hyper competitive attitude that you bring. try and say you dont bring it by having subpar armies, but it doesnt change the fact that youve brought it. when you have someone with an over the top personality coming in and peanut gallerying games along the lines of 'omg, that unit is teh suck, use this instead' all the damn time, it will get people to change (and has). i think the thing that really did it was this very website. for some reason, as soon as you started this thing up, it got the hypercompetitive bug up a lot of the regulars asses (and i am certainly not excluding myself here).
fact is, there are people who used to regularly play at mind games on the weekend that dont come around anymore because of the environment that you have helped create. thats not meant as a dig, just a fact.
the map based FB campaign we played a couple years back was horrid because of the design of the campaign, not because campaigns are inherently sucky (in it you played multiple games per week against the same opponent, that will burn anyone out). the 2 mighty empires campaigns we played after that were both enjoyable, i dont think anyone that was involved would say otherwise. that said...
'you guys decide to play Planetary Empires--the fail game?' ....this is why you werent invited to play. i dont believe that needs any further explanation.
'No, Hag, I am not going to put any more money into this tournament.'....NEVER have i EVER said you should put more money into the tournament. if you had asked me personally, you would know that that isnt my beef. i dont want a secondary prize, i want the first (and only) prize chopped up and spread around. my beef is that one person is going to walk away with the whole kit, and winner take all makes for bad sportsmanship. i played LOTR competitively for a couple of years, and i can tell you first hand that that kind of loot makes people play like cocks. it is inevitable. the mind games tournament crew is already too damn competitive, throw that kind of scratch in the pot and someone is going to get knocked the fuck out over it. i hope that im proven wrong come november, but i wont be involved unless the prize pool is divvyed up among more than one. i expressed my concerns to matt given that its his store and he could pass it on to you.
i personally am of the opinion that the mind games crew and current disposition does not make for an enjoyable tournament. its just too goddamn serious. im trying to bring it back to fun, relaxed mode with campaigns and multi player games. dont think im trying to steal your thunder, i think that YTTH provides a valuable service, but i just am not enjoying the current 40k paradigm and want to try somethin different.
i am all for classic battletech, btw. i do think that youre playin something different than what i remember. ima bring the classic stuff i have this weekend and see if we would be on the same page. the game im talkin is paper maps, paper cutout mechs and paper record sheets, circa '92. 3025.
ps. the comment system suuuuuucks...it took me like 10 minutes to figure the damn thing out. admittedly, my internet-fu is rather weak, but yeesh. :p
The problem with having absolutely no gifts for the "losers" I.E everyone who is not winning in your tournament, is that it encourages bad behaviour, and "win at all cost" attitude.
You won't have a nice feeling among the players, at the end of YTTH tournament, with this reward.
I think our local community in Bordeaux found a pretty good way to encourage competitive play,
while rewarding everyone, at least for their participation.
I think someone who brought and painted his model, give some fun to others players, shouldn't go back to home with empty hands.
Here is the system :
There is only gifts rewarding competitive play (not painting or so affecting your rank).
There is as many gifts as players. The first, big value, the last one, relative low value, in decreasing order.
At the end of the tournament, the winner choose first his gift among all available, and go home with it.
Then the second choose, then the third.. you see the point.
Apart from that, there is painters little distinctions (painted trophies, or models, or such),
but with no value except that the three best painters are recognized as such.
This is totally subjective, but it doesn't impact the tournament result, so noone mentioned a problem about it.
This behaviour creates a feeling of a community around the tournament, because when you join in, you know your
participation have an impact on the process, not that you will be crushed in 30 minutes, as a number among numbers,
by a very good player.
I hope you see the point.
Re: Planetary Empires, you did say this, did you not? "Requires you to be a gentleman." Where is that attitude? A couple years ago this happened to me: For months I could not get anyone to explain the FoW rules to me properly, while my head was recovering from my treatments I couldn't understand them. That's awesome attitudes by the way--just chuck me under the wagon if I can't follow along, oh and while we're at it, it's Andy so administer some beatdowns and see if he'll take a hint and leave. Gentlemanly, is it? No further explanation required? The exclusion bullshit is what I walked into in MG ten years ago--and you are still doing it. This doesn't foster a fucking community. It fosters the ins and the outs, the cool an the uncool. The clique system. I made it clear to Guy I wouldn't accept his racist bigotry in my presence--and he took his show on the road. I should feel bad about that? Gee, we actually have BLACK guys showing up in the store--not just one Islander who Guy was afraid of and wouldn't talk shit to his face. What, I don't know anything about this stuff? There was a clique of 'too good' in the store and yes, they got driven out because I showed everyone just how full of shit they were--and how bad they sucked. Have you forgotten that, Hag? Do we have different recollections of Mind Games? Weekenders vs Dayers? Friday nighters vs Saturday nighters? Come on, it's ridiculous. People used to talk shit, so I beat them--and they leave the fucking store and that's my fault? Really? I was supposed to put up with the shit talking AND then let them beat me, so I could be honored with their presence? I've got a lot of love in my heart--but not that much I'm going to put up with any of that crap in a place designed for fun.
Nowhere do I see any mention of me going out of my way to bring new people in, to play 'soft' armies--if you don't think it's possible to be competive and fun at the same time, then I really don't know what to say. I expect the best behaviour from you guys, and when you can't be bothered to even be polite to each other--what am I supposed to say?
I bust my ass trying to put together fun tournaments for you jokers, and you seriously believe raining on my parade is the way to thank me? To pre-uninvite me to store events because you think the one guy trying to inject fun by any way possible, is the asshole here to ruin the fun game? ALL of the 'campaigns' at MG have ended in discord. I've fucking been here for a decade, Hag. Blood Bowl, not played anymore. Fantasy, not played anymore. Gothic, FoW, Necromunda, War Machine, it's all gone to complete and utter shit--and every time a campaign happens, that game system gets poisoned because those of you who think you know what fun is, get so bent out of fucking shape you can't play each other in that game system for YEARS afterwards. Note I've been involved in precisely ZERO of those campaigns, and for the longest time refused to play anything but 40K like Kyle and Edwin have--because they are unwilling to spend even 20$ on Battletech, and man if that isn't a huge condemnation of how fucked things are I don't know what is. All those games dropped by the wayside, and I played in NONE of them--so the attitude is my fault?
You see me with my non-Para Americans (which everyone else has and are NOT fun to play against)? My Inner Sphere? My Chaos (which you have and know how horrible they are)? I don't play those armies because they are fucking awesome, Hag. I play them because those are armies I happen to like. I've given 8 armies away in the last two years, Hag. GIVEN AWAY. All in the vain hope of kindling interest in ANY game people are willing to play for fun. I'm the asshole?!
As far as splitting the prize money up, I'm not opposed to it. I was planning on bringing a 'plan B' along and asking the attendees that day if they'd be amenable to a more...equitable distribution. Doesn't change the facts alot of guys say I'm the dickhead--but I don't change my attitude because of a few bucks on the line. GT's have always been eminently winnable by me, I just won't sell out to gain acclaim or money--I am who I am. What, you guys suddenly become dickheads because there's money on the line? Well fuck all of you--I don't call you friends so you can act like assholes whenever a 20$ is waved in your face. You are way way better than that, and damn you for making me have to say it.
This blog isn't for Mind Games. This blog is for all the newbies who get their ass kicked by asshole vets out to run them off so they can remain king of the fucking hill. If you can't tell by now, I'm not one to suffer injustice of any kind for any length of time. If that makes me an asshole, fine--you think I'm posting shit about FoW and Battletech because I'm some kind of hypercompetitive fuck who doesn't give a shit about fun? Fine, you think that. I disagree with that assessment.
And no, you didn't cause this shitstorm. All of you did. I'm disappointed in my friends, and they can't seem to hear me in any other forum but this one. So here, the internet gets a good fucking laugh at my expense, again. Great, so what--so long as you guys hear my message. Fun is coming back to Mind Games, or I'm going to leave in disgust like everyone else has. Be a part of the solution, or get out.
Since when we had to be consciously aware that we are having fun, in order to have fun? I play the game (to win) and decide afterwards if I had fun or not. Still haven't had a game I didn't have fun playing, although I must say getting my ass handed back to me isn't as enjoyable as winning. However, those games usually thought me a valuable lesson - what works and what doesn't. And I try to learn from the mistakes and avoid doing them again - and having great time when I notice my playing has improved.
Just my thoughts.
For the record, this is an email I sent to Matt last night. I do put my money where my mouth is. I don't know if he'll go for it, but I can acknowledge mistakes made and try to fix them.
I've had a few ideas on improving the 'fun' factor, mostly to get people into the store to play and <ahem> pay to buy stuff.
I was thinking of running tournaments a little differently, but the majority of ideas are just concepts except this one:
Instead of paying to enter and then paying that money out, I was thinking of allowing people to play for free and while having smaller prizes (trophies and gift certificates) for the winners, allowing participants (on tournament day only, after the tournament ends) to buy product at a 30, 35, or 40% discount instead of the current 20%.
I think giving one or two tourneys a try in say FoW or Fantasy might boost those up.
What do you think? Get more people to come in, and boost sales?
Stelek upset people? Nah, never :P
I've skimmed over the article and there is some interesting points.
"The way I learned to play was by getting my ass kicked repeatedly."
-Stelek
Same here. I feel it's the best way to learn, even better if your opponent is willing to take some time to explain what you could've done better and how you can improve for next time. Lots of people don't have the stomach for this type of "education," though.
-GK
I think a quote from the 2nd "Playing To Win" 'net article applies.
"
<blockquote>1) "I can't play that way, because if I did, and even if I believed it was the best path to self-improvement, I DON'T have a steady stream of opponents in the game I play. I have a limited audience and playing that way, or playing to win at all, alienates them so I am forced to tone it down."</blockquote>
<blockquote>2) "If everyone played that way, no one would ever be able to learn the game."</blockquote>
<blockquote>3) "There are better things in life than winning. You are just a rude bully."</blockquote>
On the fist point--yeah. You got me. If playing your hardest prevents your opponents from playing you, and you have access to only a very few opponents, I guess you're stuck. Sorry. Too bad you don't play Warcraft 3 or some internet game with endless opponents. You will be unable to improve past a certain point, so make the best of it, find more opponents, or play a different game.
On the second point, I guess you got me again. You, the expert player, are powerful in the narrow domain of whichever game you play. How will you use that power? Perhaps you will judge who is worthy to be taught the secret knowledge and who is to be dispatched quickly. Perhaps you will take one of the two extremes, and either defeat all or nurture all. No matter what you do, I am strongly in favor of you passing on your wisdom and passion to other players. It's no "fun" being good at an esoteric game with no players, so it is even to your advantage to train and mentor new players. But beware--all training and no "real playing" can weaken you. Thomas "trained" his peers by exemplifying excellence, setting an inspiring standard. But what is the "moral" thing to do? Does morality matter in this context?
This whole area is far beyond the scope of my ability to advise. It all comes down to what your goal really is. To improve yourself? To improve others? To win? To have "fun"?
We need to take about 100 steps back and remember what the whole point of "playing to win" was in the first place. It's certainly not about beating 9 year-old girls at Street Fighter."
<span>It's certainly not about beating 9 year-old girls at Street Fighter.</span>
Actually, they usually kick my ass if I'm not paying attention. =|
So, did you know the article before I suggested it? Either way it seems to have had some influence.
Our little gaming group only started half a year ago, and already people think about leaving because I won most games. I didn't play to win, I just didn't intentionally fuck up so they could win, but that's enough to make some people think badly of you it seems. Like they'd never beat you. Now I'm trying to organize strategy/tactics sessions to "teach" them (noobs teaching noobs, that's the way it is done!). Maintaining a regular playerbase is freaking hard. And we're just starting.
I'm really impressed about what you're trying to do for your community, I realize it must be hell if they don't even appreciate it
You know, after I leaved high school I thought that dumb shit like cliques, the "I'm better than you" attitude and the stomping of everybody that falls behind was over. Boy do I was wrong. Granted, that was a couple of years back, but here's another example of why people act like jerks.
Campaigns don't work because everybody want the story of their army being awesome and pwning everybody else instead of being the lame guys that got their asses kicked. In short, everybody wants to be the main character instead of the secondary punching bag.
And, to the Internet in general, if you are too worried about hurting feelings for calling people's shit and/or you get all butthurt when your shit is called upon, you are acting LIKE A WOMAN. Man up, as long as the criticism is constructive (aka explains why something suck instead of just pointing that it sucks) it can be done freely.
Personally, I enjoy hard battles with a small margin because I know that even if I lost I gave it all. Is the part that make competition fun.
Hey, I have to write my name every time that I make a comment. I'm using JS-Kit. At least my Image is the same.
Orange, not really no. Is that good or bad or neither? lol
I have to admit, I've come back and forth to this post and gave a thought or three before posting about it. It seems like an internal issue among your group of friends, but after reading the thread again I think I'll go ahead and risk giving you my opinion.
Fuck 'em all. Stick with the original plan.
Basically, you gave them exactly what they said they wanted and now they're bitching. At some point, everyone that entered thought they'd have a chance at the big money prize; obviously now they're not so sure, so there has been talk of changing the prize pool to be more accomodating. Human nature being what it is, you really think all this talk is going on because they want to be fair?
As far as your local game store is concerned, either you have his support or not, either you're good for business or you're not. Since it sounds like you drop serious buck in support of your hobby, thus this store, vote with your pocketbook. Move on if you have to - someone out there will want your patronage. Frankly, it sounds like you have too many stores in your area, but that gives your some options.
So let me get this straight - they're going to run a campaign out of Mind Games and not open it up to the group at large? Someone choosing to participate or not based on the structure/rules is one thing, but that sort of arbitrary pick and choose is cliqueish high school shit.
Look Stelek - I get that you're a quirky sort of guy. If you came to kibitz a game I was playing and stepped over a line, I'd tell you to back off until after the game. If you were too pushy with your ideas and I didn't want to hear it, I'd tell you to let it go. People are people; we all of us have our faults and we're not always going to get along, but it sounds like the big problem is your group of friends, not you.
I get why you posted this here: it seems this site is a reflection of your life; that's part of what makes it appealing. There is always something interesting to read, even if I think you're off your rocker sometimes. I'm aware there are probably other factors in all this we, your readers, aren't getting, but even Hag's reply is telling.
Sounds like you need to tell your 'friends' to shake the sand out of their collective vaginas and grow up. At least as grown up as we get with our man-barbies.
Take care - Brent
I'm nobody, but just wanted to share the perspective from the kind of person that Stelek talks about:
I love miniature gaming. I think is awesome. I started out blowing chunks. I'm slowly getting better, thanks in no small part to this site.
I don't play very regularly, and for a looooooong time I didn't even bother going to my gaming store. Because for every nice guy who I had a fun game with and I got to learn a thing or two, I encountered a long stream of cocky "I'm soooo awesome watch me kick your ass" players.
That's not fun. It has nothing to do with being competitive or not. I fully accept that I will win some and I will lose some. My problem is the attitude where somehow somebody's win/loss ration is a direct proportion to their cock size. I don't play games to make somebody feel good about themselves, I play games to have fun with someone.
I like competition. Competition is fun.
Maybe it's a guy thing to be a douchebag in gaming? Most of my friends are girls, most of my gaming has been with girls (who are quite ruthless, believe you me...even when playing something as inocuous as D&D), so maybe I'm just not used to it. But even the most petty, bitter girl will take the loss and internalize it. It's only guys who get violently angry in your face.
Just my two cents. Competitive can be fun. Stop killing it for those of us who have other things to do and are struggling to find the reasons and excuses to spend their valuable spare time on the game. Because if you take away our reason to play with you, you don't really win. Unless you define "winning" by calling your local gaming store a personal club house and slitting its throat.
Did I mention we had all but one gaming store close down where I live (3-4 total dead)? Do you know what it's like to have only ONE possible venue, or worse, not have any at all? Yeah. All kinds of win down that path.
Stelek may sound like a dick online, but it's clear that he loves the game, wants to make people better, and WANTS people to spend their time playing games. That's more than I can say from other "top notch" 40k players I met. All they seem to care about is looking awesome and having everyone know it. Stelek is not shy about telling us, but that's not the focus of his blog.
A couple thoughts for whatever it is worth:
I think the Planetary Empires campaign is a matter of crossed wires, I don't know that you were deliberately not invited Andrew, I think it may be a case of misunderstanding. Don't really want to take sides, I think it is just a misunderstanding.
To those of you who aren't from the Mind Games group, don't think that Andy's efforts go completely unappreciated there are those who care and thank him. Not all of us agree with how he presents things, or responds to things but I know he appreciates that as well.
Competition and fun shouldn't be mutually exclusive, in fact I have played several sports both competitively and pick-up style and I have the most fun when the games are most competitive. Sportsmanship is not connected in any way to the level of skill/competition. I have had very casual "friendly games" be completely ruined by an opponent who was a jerk, and some of my favorite (and in fact very most memorable) games against very skilled opponents who were fun no matter the game environment (ie. tournament/pick-up).
I think this problem, as well as most other problems in the world, boils down to communication. If people have a problem with how others act they should approach them in a calm reasonable manner and present them with their opinion. Be prepared to be received in any number of ways, including anger. (People usually don't like to be told they are wrong) However most reasonable people if you approach in a non-confrontational, and nonaccusatory manner will at least listen to what you have to say.
If you think someone is cheating, even blatantly, yelling at them "YOU ARE A CHEATER!" will probably not get you very far. On the other hand a reasonable "would you mind remeasuring that? I think you may have accidentally moved too far..." or "can you show me that rule so I can make sure I understand completely..." will get you farther. This is one of the points Andy and I differ on publicly, but are much closer on in person. For the most part the long term players in miniature war games are adults. ACT LIKE IT!
This whole situation makes me sad.
Hey this is Guy. You never told me to get my show on the road. As far as my racist behavior, I have no idea what you are talking about. You should watch who you are bashing because when you got sick and couldn't pay your bills and didnt have food. Ben was taking you all over town 24/7. I gave Ben 450 dollars to give to you and he said you would be to proud to accept it from me. So I told him to tell you that it was from him and never said a word about it. I dont want any money but just want you to watch what you say before you slam someone, and if you are from hard core Philly you would have fronted me personally, not posted your comment safe in your computer room. Shoot me if you have the minerals or front me, dont trash talk on your site as far as everything on my end. I thought there was no beef, but thats cool. And I quit coming in to the MG because I work weekends, but now that it's not warhammer but Andy hammer, I dont want to go in where everyone in there is a power gamer and you write all of their lists (and I will give you that, that you can write a bad ass list no doubt). I used to love playing you because I would learn alot from you but there is no fun in playing at the MG because you have made them all power gamers except for the select few. So if you want to continue talking trash, be prepared!
P.S. What Islander am I afraid of?
Your store gives regulars a 20% discount base??? WTF kind of people do you have if you can't sell stuff at Warstore prices without bothering with shipping delays?
I remember you bashing Challis. I remember telling you to knock it off. Over and over again. What, you've forgotten? He hasn't. He just loves you.
Thanks for the help--whaddya want in return? You shunned me, not me you. Your wife went and made up drama--what, that was fun for me? I really enjoyed all of that, really I did. I'm at MG all the time--I'll be there tomorrow. You think I won't tell anyone anything to their face? Are you kidding me? How many times did I tell you to knock it off with the nigger jokes? Every time I saw you? You've forgotten?
I'm easy to get a hold of. You can come down anytime and see me--there's no beef? Really? That isn't the vibe I've ever gotten from you. Everyone at MG is a power gamer now? Let's see:
Nate, plays Orks.
Josh, plays Blood Angels.
Jimmy, plays Russian Cavalry.
I could go on, but why?
I have tons of crap armies--and I win with them. What, I should do the following to make you comfortable down at MG:
1) Say nothing while you make veiled racist comments? I'm not fooled--you think anyone else is? You can say you don't make racist comments and nobody else will say it to you, but I will, and I always have. Maybe I'm too subtle with my 'knock it off' and 'that isn't funny'.
2) Play like you, unwilling to play better or even different from 5 years ago, so of course everyone beats you. You think I was making Edwin's and Aaron's lists when they were playing at your house kicking your ass? I assure you, I wasn't. I haven't made Edwin or Aaron a list in a very long time now--they got better, they figured it out for themselves, and this is my doing?
The guys that play at MG, they still play at your house or no? I've no idea--if they don't, why is that? I infected them with not-sucking?
Maybe you noticed, I'm actually involved in my community, I give a shit enough that when I see YOU not playing I wonder why. There are lots of guys that don't come around anymore--that's the point.
I don't have to like you, to want you to come around. If you aren't racist anymore, great. Five years ago, you were. Everyone grows, Guy. Including me. If I can grow, so can you.
Nobody is talking trash here. Just the truth.
The islander in question is dead to the best of my understanding. There's only been one, Guy. Who knows, maybe you weren't afraid of him. I never heard what I consider racist jokes coming out of you when he was around.
Always Challis, never him.
Oh, and if what you say is true--thanks. Things happen to all of us. Including me, and you. You aren't the only person to have helped and been helped by me.
Don't quit the community then get upset. Get upset first, and effect change.
You see anyone else reaching out to try and fix the community? Me either.
I don't have to like you to want every bit of help to fix it.
For the record--just because someone has gotten better than you, does not make them a power gamer. I wouldn't attribute that moniker to anyone at the store. Frankly because they aren't that far gone--yet.
Thus this public outcry to stop the bs.
Micah: Got me man. =|
I want a 20 percent store discount.
We no longer have tourneys in our store. We are starting to travel 5 hours round trip to play in a 'neighboring' city. We are considering 9 hour round trips. The 'organized' play in our store no longer exists.
The store signed up for fantasy 'ard boyz. I went in the friday before and asked about the tournament. The answer I received from the store manager was "I've only been working here for two weeks, I don't know anything." Needless to say, the fantasy 'ard boyz tourney flopped. He worked for the store for years until the 4th of July and the store and him had a mutual 'parting of the ways'. He came back less than 3 months later and you can see how well things are run.
Damn, I really want a 20 percent store discount.
And organized 40k play.
Well, we're only 16 hours away so if the 9 hour car rides flop--let me know. ;)
"Despite being clearly labeled as a 'winner take all' tournament, I had nobody question that for the six months it was up."
I questioned it several times, not to be a dick or for a personal stake but because I that it was constructive advice. People that go to an event are more likely to have fun and come back if they get a prize, even a small one. Having no prize for second place will bring out too much competition and aggression. Hell, just give everyone a single model or bag of bits just for coming, and take the cost out of the very large and generous prize... not deeper from your pocket.
I hope that you can resolve all the local drama, good luck.
Guy White wrote:
<span>As far as the MG I dont care. I play the game to have fun. And challis and I always made jokes about each other me being white him being black and I dont remember you telling me to knock it off. and that was 5 years ago anyway and you bring it up out of the blue? Im just confused is all. I havent had a conversation with you in like two years or even been around. Edwin and Aaron dont even play at my house. But I will tell you they would kick my ass and I am fine with that. So I am sorry that I offended you in any way. Dude you took me to my first R.T.T. if I was that bad why did you invite me? Infact we went to several together and cleaned house on all those guys everytime. And that was like 4 years ago.</span>
Reply:
You should care, and you should come back and play. I want people to have fun, not feel left out. What's in the past is in the past, I won't bring it up again. I apologize if I offended you.
Chaosgerbil: I meant the locals. ={
"<span>Well, we're only 16 hours away so if the 9 hour car rides flop--let me know."</span>
<span>How the hell would you be able to remember/know that? And don't give micah any ideas.</span>
<span>32 hour round trip by car for a couple of games of 40k. Hmmm...</span>
Gx1080: "<span>You know, after I leaved high school..."</span>
<span>Wow, maybe you should go back?</span>
<span>Just kiddin around, bud! Still pretty ironic. ;D</span>
I can see posters IP addresses. I know how the internet works. So I can figure out where approximately you live. Then it's a google map away from figuring out the travel time by car. ;)
<span>I can see posters IP addresses. I know how the internet works. So I can figure out where approximately you live.</span>
Should we be scared? :-s
Not really, I am pretty harmless/benevolent. ;)
Frank, we should all quiver in fear...
Really I hope that everyone can get over all the crap that has happened in the past. Anytime a community exists for as long as MG there are going to be disagreements and hurt feelings. I genuinely like most of the guys (and Guy) who have come to MG.
Can't we all just get along? Sing koom bai ah or something and have some fun?
Yes for all of you who are ever in the SL area, come down to MG and take advantage of the $50 deal:
Every 50 you spend at once you get a free blister up to $10 or ten off of something more expensive. It is cumulative too. So you spend $250 before tax and you get $50 free. It is awesome. Not quite a 20% discount, actually closer to 17% but amazing nonetheless.
I have not vested interest in you spending money at MG, but I would like it to remain open long term.
I think Andy says what he says out of genuine care for the community and for the individuals involved, though he comes of a bit rough. So let me throw my invite out there (though I am apparently a cheating jerk anyway):
Please come play at MG, so long as you don't mind losing. (I lose frequently so I include myself in that) Just don't play Josh when his dice are on a hot streak --which is always-- it will just make you want to blow your head off.
lol traceroute threats
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