Josiah said...
Stelek, could you explain why Telion is so good with scouts the way you have for maugen ra? I would love to hear what you feel the best use for him is. I guess the obvious is giving your ML BS6 when you are tank sniping, but what would you prioritize for his sniping attacks? Also, how does his wound allocation work, do you put his wounds on after the opponent has allocated the rest?
Reply:
Certainly. Telion is the only way to make your only foot squad (in most marine armies) not completely suck.
Taking an objective is fine, but meh you can only do so much with a useless squad--and if you are going to spend points in 40K, you need a squad that has multiple threats.
Shooting, CC, and survivability are all things you want in these units.
Sadly, without a CC character in the unit you can't give scouts much in the way of CC.
Since they were nerfed down to BS3, they suck at shooting.
Telion makes them not suck so bad at shooting. They become, in essence, a set of wound counters for Telion and his ability to bestow BS6 or rending hits.
His primary use is as a sniper.
You get to allocate any wounds he causes on whatever models you want.
So picking off meltagunners and sergeants is what he does best.
Being able to boost the crap BS3 missile launcher to BS6 is good, even if the accompanying shot isn't so hot at taking down armor; it gives the scouts duality where they did not really have it before.
I hope that helps.
Home Analysis Space Marines Warhammer 40k » Telion
Wednesday, July 15, 2009
Telion
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Stelek
Labels: Analysis, Space Marines, Warhammer 40k
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19 comments:
A simple follow-up question:
If everyone should mech up, why bring something that is only useful against infantry, and more specifically, only such infantry that has important upgrades on separate 1-wound models?
His points will net you almost an additional Speeder.
-Pekka-
For when you demech the opponent.
If you run a heavily mechanized force at the opponent, they aren't going to be aiming for your snipers in the back.
Even at BS6, a single missile launcher isn't going to scare many vehicles. Irritate, yes. Scare, no.
So they get ignored, then you start meltagunning vehicles and out come said infantry.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'only such infantry' on 1-wound models. So 99% of infantry in the game, which is 99% of the troops choices in the game--you can pick off any model you want. Sorry, is there a downside to this I'm not aware of?
I meant two things:
1)The infantry in some armies (Tau, most good Eldar units, most Daemons, Necrons, Tyranids etc) have no special models worth picking off.
2) Ork Nobz are an example of 2-wound models you'd like to kill but most likely take several turns trying to. Tyranid Warriors and Tau Battlesuits also qualify.
If the game goes well, yes, you will eventually de-mech your opponent. He can still keep the disembarked infantry away form the LOS or range of the immobile Telion squad eg using his intact vehicles to shield them. Besides, most good armies should have enough firepower to obliterate the disembarked units nontheless, so no need for somewhat unreliable (at least against power armour) tricks.
-Pekka-
1) Let's examine that for a minute.
Tau: Any suit with drones hates this rule. Sniping out higher LD characters is never a bad thing in Tau infantry units.
Demons: Hidden heralds (think Epidemius) do not like being sniped.
Necrons: Holy crap, snipe a Lord in a deep striking unit of Immortals? Yes please.
Tyranids: One of the best units, a Tyrant with a Bodyguard--hates this. Broodlord hates it too.
Just because the basic troops in some armies don't care--virtually all of these armies do not like 2 BS6 sniper shots hitting their MC. Note no MC like it, he alone is likely to do more damage than the rest of his squad combined.
2) Ork Nobs get hit by everything else in your army. You snipe, he allocates--and you put a single wound on an already wounded nob. He loses said nob. How hard is it to not think of everything in a vacuum?
If you build a good army, you will start demeching the other guy immediately. You are thinking in a vacuum again--if his scoring troops are hiding from you, then by all means go ahead. Most armies do not have the ability to 'obliterate' enemy infantry at 36" range. Putting a wound on the multimelta trooper at 36" in a 10 man squad is almost impossible. Telion lets you do so. If you don't think that's worth something, I don't know what to say to that.
People hiding from Telion seems like a damn good reason to take him. I'd encourage that behaviour myself, sounds like a game winner for the guy with Telion.
Sounds like I need to give him another go then.
-Pekka-
Telion can be great. I run him in a Melta/MM heavy list and he does exactly what Stelek describes; kills special/heavy weapons that fall out of transports.
I don't seem to have much luck with Rending but he's killed all the good stuff out of a squad more than enough times to make him worth the points. 50 points to help keep my rides safe, yes please!
What about inviting a Master of the forge to hang out in the shootan party bad/good?
Look up the Best Of Marines...
I've been loving telion vs orks, sniped a KFF mek last game!
Do telion shots allocate seperately from the rest of his squad? Meaning, can you put a telion wound onto a model one of your reg scouts already allocated to? I've been playing it as the whole squad follows normal allocation rules, but my telion wounds are put where I want them (so only one wound total from the scouts on a given enemy model, usually).
-Deathpepper
Putting the MOTF in a squad with a 2+ cover save is obviously good, and I have done it several times. My questions are:
Is it worth having the scouts without tellion if you have the MOTF? Is it worth having Tellion without the MOTF? Basically, can you run half of that combo?
As a longtime Inquisition player, the most annoying thing I discovered in the new Marines codex was Telion. The Vindicare has mostly sucked since forever, and along comes an *upgrade* character at half the points of the Vindicare that does everything you want the mostest uberest sniper to do ... only *way* better.
>:(
I didn't see where you said when Telion's wounds are allocated. Is it after the rest if the squad it before?
The Codex doesn't say in which order to do it. Count to 3, hold your breath, and wait for the SM FAQ to be updated.
Personally I'd say doing it before your opponent allocates is probably the one that will induce less fistfights.
FAQ update a confusing rule? O to dream....
Logically, it seems to make the most sense that the Telion player allocates his wound before the opponent allocates any other wounds.
To wait for the opponent to allocate everything first would be to REallocate a wound. Parsing the rules text very narrowly here, but ... what else can you do?
In any case, as Stelek says, having Telion go first would be more sportsmanlike. It's not like this nerfs Telion too awful bad, and it will avoid arguments.
But if your opponent would *prefer* for Telion to go second, welcome the opportunity!
Telion is a dream. Note though: his best use is subtle. In game three of Hard Boyz, my opponent was plinking away at Abbadon, forcing saves he passed, when he should have killed off the Standard of Nurgle.
The best targets have already been outlined, being upgrades, Vets, Exarchs, HW's, and so on.
Brent
I haven't used Telion in a while so I'm a bit fuzzy on the wording, but you are talking about allocating wounds only from his personal shooting (stalker boltgun) right? If he conveys his BS 6 to the missile launcher scout, am I mistaken in thinking you can't allocate that wound to anyone in the squad?
No you can't allocate wounds caused by 'guided' shots.
@Damon
I agree with your interpretation, if you go by the entire squad wounding at once, Telion should allocate first rather than second.
But I'm not sure going first is worse than going second. Let's face it, BS3 scouts are not likely to inflict many wounds. The odds of wounding everyone in the target unit 1+ times then later placing another 1 with Telion onto a special target are very small.
What placing them at the same time allows you to do (again, fairly rarely) is let's say you fire at a unit composed of 1 char and 2 regular guys and wound with your ML and Telion. You could allocate Telion's 2 bolter shots to the regular 2, which forces your opponent to allocate the ML wound to his own character.
Last Anon,
You've got it absolutely right. Like allocating Telion's wounds to the shield drone to force them to put the ML hit on a crisis suit. When that is their HQ insta dead, the drones die anyway.
Ser Hag learned the hard way that sniping champions out of plague marine squads and then being charged by a dread sucks.
But what are you going to shoot? Certainly not the 2+ save guys at long range.
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