islyfe@aim.com wrote:
Reply:Hello Stelek,
I would like you to thank you for taking your time to look over my lists. I would like to start off by saying that I'm having trouble settling on a competitive 1750 list. I have only been war gaming for about 4 months and most of the advice about my army building have come from forums (Mainly Warseer). From what I understand Seer council on jetbikes are the only way for Eldar to be competitive, so I tried to make sure I had one even though the are a hugh point sink After reading your blog I got a fresh new perspective on army building and completely restructured my list. I'll show you me previous lists just for shits and giggles._________
My first list (before reading your blog)
HQ:Farseer: Jetbike + Doom + Fortune + RoWarding+ SpiritStones +Singing Spear [178]
Warlocks: 6 w/ Jetbikes + 4 Destructors 1 Enhance + 1 Embolden + 2 Singing Spears [336]
Troops:Guardians: 10 w/ Scatter Laser + Spiritseer +Embolden [131] (hold objective/babysit lords)
Dire Avengers: 10 w/ exarch+2ASC+BS+Defend [167]in Wave Serpent TL EML+ShurCan+SprStn [140]
Dire Avengers: 10 w/ exarch+2ASC+ BS+Def [167]in Wave Serpent TL EML+ShurCan+SprStn [140]
Heavy Support:War Walkers(3): 6 scatter lasers[180]Wraithlord: x2 flamer + BL+EML [155]Wraithlord: x2 flamer + BL+EML [155]
[1749]_________
My Current list (After reading your blog)
Autarch: Jetbike, Laser Lance, Mandiblaster [130]
Farseer: Jetbike + Spirit Stones + Runes of Warding + Doom + Fortune [175]
Warlocks: 6 w/ Jetbikes + 3 Destructors + 2 Embolden + Enhance [325]
F.Dragons: 5 in Wave Serpent w/ TL-ShurCan, S.Stones [190]
F.Dragons: 5 in Wave Serpent w/ TL-ShurCan, S.Stones [190]
D.Avengers: 10 in Wave Serpent w/ TL- Bright Lance [255]
D.Avengers: 10 in Wave Serpent w/ TL-Bright Lance [255]
Fire Prism [115]
Fire Prism [115]
[1750]
@ 1500, I drop a FD squad and All the Autarchs upgrades.
@ 2000, I add another Fire Prism, 1 extra fire dragon in each squad, 4 Exarchs( Dragon Breath Flamer/Crack Shot x2) and (Dual Avenger Shuriken Catapults/Blade Storm x2),__________
I feel that my last list is very solid and very tweakable now I just need some comments and criticisms.
Thanks again,Islyfe
P.S: Why do think that Banshees suck so much?
Don't go to Warseer for help building a list. Most forums suck, but man...Warseer is really bad. lol
Seer Council on Jetbikes are NOT the only way for Eldar to be competitive, truly not.
I like having them because they give you a decent chance against 'guns, I'll show you guns' Tau. lol
First list is...meh. How do you stop raiders on turn 1? Turn 2, sure but just giving up a FD unit and it's wave serpent to kill one isn't really an awesome trade. lol
I don't favor combining mech with MC.
Second list: I'd give the Serpents Cannons and BL.
Finally, I really can't stress how important a max size seer council is. lol
I like the 2nd list better, but if you enjoy the first one...you should not let me stop you. I think it's more 'fun' than 'competitive' though.
12 comments:
Do please explain why a max size Council is mandatory if I do run one.
Cuz I run a 7 man one to good effect, with the 1x Emb/1x Enh/3x Destructor
I can see some situational things for a max sized one, such as Callidus/PBS, but not something "all-comers"
When you face my Tau army, and I go first, you think a lone Farseer is gonna hurt me?
Gotta have as many guys in the unit as possible for when you face superior firepower lists.
Imagine 6 IG HW teams with re-rolls to hit, all are autocannons.
What, you think with fortune that's fun times?
You need to be able to survive several turns of intense firepower, and still be able to crush whatever you might face.
The main trouble for Tau for me other than the firepower is the ones I usually face have the "FUCK YOU!" Commander standing somewhere with a group near the middle of the Tau's concetration of forces.
The Council moves into position to get some multi charges off, does so, then the Commander hops in on me and now the Council is looking at a 4 Wound 2+/4+ deal :(
But aye, kay tis why I plan to drop it to rely more on Serpents.
What other Eldar lists are competitive?
Yes, islyfe.
Why bother putting BL and cannons on the dragon's serpents? shouldn't they be moving 24" anyways?
So you don't HAVE to move 24".
BL aren't awesome anti-tank weapons, but they do frighten:
Tau Suits.
Russes.
Land Raiders.
All things that you must kill, so if you can get a decent shot off at range--why not make it so you can?
Smurfy: Yeah, he is amusing although if one wound gets through...he's in bad shape. Personally I've learned to shoot the shit out of that commander + friends. If it's a kroot squad in cover, yes it's more difficult to dislodge but what can you do but suck it up?
Not like I don't rate Tau above Eldar for nothing ya know. lol
I daresay the other reason to go with lances on the transports is the strength issue.
All the other guns (beyond the missile launcher) are S6. The best of the lot for rate of fire is the Scatter laser, and with four twin-linked BS3 shots, we can hit 3-4 times.
...and then maybe glance AV12. We can do a number on infantry, but the EML and Bright Lance are it for threatening armor at range.
So, EML vs. Bright Lance. EML can crank out an S4 plasma missile, which means that ooh, ahh, we can fire it AND the underslung shuriken cannon AND move 12" to harass infantry. Not bad. But you give up the ability to really threaten AV13-14 vehicles, and the psychological impact of "Aw, shit, it's a LANCE."
Trust me, if you play someone with AV13-14 on the table, they WILL count the number of lances you've got left each turn. Even if the lance isn't the best way to kill his vehicles, he'll worry about them just because that AV13-14 he paid for got reduced in effectiveness.
For reliance on Seer Councils:
I've been moving away from 'em, and it's for a reason. Well, the first reason is that I'd been running it a lot. Second is that if it eats heaps of wounds (...like, y'know, lots of autocannon wounds or something) it just goes under. My opponents learn to target it and slam it real hard, or they hit up other things. The Seer Council is ALSO a hell of an example of where bad dice can REALLY screw you. I mean, I've had games where 5 bolt pistols down 3 warlocks. Granted, at the time that was a 6-Seer + Farseer council, so I totally echo the advice to bring more.
But still, it IS a lot of eggs in a basket, and it DOES fall into the super-unit area with those risks and rewards. Sure, it'll CRUSH whatever you point it at. However, there's only so much it can do by itself. It moves, it assaults one to a few things, it nukes them, and moves on. Feed it sacrificial units if you can, blow it up...it's not the be-all end-all unit, and certainly not mandatory for Eldar competitiveness.
Can you guys show me some non-seer council competitive eldar lists? I feel like, I haven't seen one yet.
Stelek posted a nice pure-mech Eldar list a bit back, but I think compared to pure-mech IG or Space Marines, Eldar just don't quite cut it.
You'll still stomp non-mech armies with it though.
Stelek's Best Of Eldar, which I'm building myself towards already before. It requires knowing the basics of a Mechdar list and just making the most of everything you got rather than a potential "handicap" unit such as the Council.
As a start, I'd move towards the Eldar strengths. You have reasonably nasty grav tanks, you have arguably the best 'get out of transport and nuke tank' unit in Fire Dragons, you have Fire Prisms for heavy support, and a list that generally favors mobility.
Stelek's 'Eldar Remix' http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/06/eldar-remix.html is an example of this thinking in action, though I'm likely to slap a Farseer in there myself.
Wave Serpents are by FAR one of the most fun choices an Eldar player can bring, just because everyone loves melta and Serpents flip melta off with their speed and Energy Field. Honestly, play a Guard fellow with lots of Ordnance and Melta, and even if you lose, you'll derive some satisfaction from just telling him it's only 1d6 penetration, regardless.
That aside, DA shoot troops well enough, STorm Guardians are the only way to get flamers in, and Fire Prisms are great fun for slapping out S5 templates, and in a pinch can nuke marines and terminators with AP2 template love, or even gun for vehicles.
The strength of a list like the remix is that there's not a single 'if I stop it, I can win' components, whereas dropping a Seer Council is a hell of a blow to any list with one in it.
Every tank in the army can threaten light armor; the Serpents and Prisms can threaten heavier armor, and the stuff in the transports can maul infantry, or Fire Dragons can flip AV13-14 the bird.
I'm aiming to try a list like that at some point. It's a nice move away from a Seer Council, and still mobile.
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