Email:
I'd be interested in what you have to say about ranking armies in 40K,
if for no other reason than to see what happens in your area. I'm
aware that since the vast majority of my games are within a group of
about 40 players with some armies underrepresented I can't have seen
every army played as well as it possibly can be played across all
combinations and armies (360 games would be required just to see every
army match-up for just the basic scenarios, and there is no way of
ensuring that each game is played well by both sides). So if you have
thoughts on the subject, I'm interested in seeing them. If you just
want to point and go "that's so wrong," that's fine with me too, but
provides nothing interesting.
Glad you liked the "what's wrong" bit; if everyone with a 40K blog
gets onto the bandwagon of "stop being a douchebag" maybe we can deal
with less of that in tournaments.
Cordially,
Jwolf
PS I do spend a lot less time on blog entries than on 40K games each
week. I get in 4-5 a week on average with a variety of opponents. I
used to play more with the same 2 or 3 guys, but I found that didn't
improve my game, it just stroked my ego.
Reply:
Well, I think every army is deadly. I own every 40k army for that reason (unlike any other game system).
I think you need to divide each list into it's mech, foot, and 'other' categories.
While there is room for lots of variation, each of those themes covers a basic archtype.
Mech is very strong right now, foot is a bit lower with a few exceptions, and the 'other' armies are things like beast armies, horde armies (technically foot but played quite differently), and MC armies.
As most of the books can't do beast, horde, or MC armies...we'll leave those out. Yes, Tyranids are unique. Got it, I'll cover it lol. So are Eldar MC lists and Chaos MC lists (both the Marine and Daemon versions). They aren't BAD, but can not spam enough MC to be dangerous--in short, they fail because they do not have enough MC for redundancy.
So let's focus on what is actually good among the army lists, eh?
Mech Chaos Demons: Doesn't exist.
Foot Chaos Demons: Very random, unable to deal with Mech.
Mech CSM: Usually Havoc/Chosen/CSM spam in Rhinos.
Foot CSM: Normal lash armies, tri-oblit and PM/EC spam.
Mech DH: GK Terminator Raider rush.
Foot DH: Dreads or IG or Raiders for AT, board edge sitting GK with psycannons.
Mech Dark Eldar: Night shield raider/ravager spam. Also Wych Spam but that's 4E imo.
Foot Dark Eldar: Warrior horde backed by WWP Incubi on Raiders for crushing bullshit CC death.
Mech Eldar: Council, DA in Serpents, Prisms, Falcons + FD, etc.
Foot Eldar: Usually Avatar-led, DA backed with WL. Annoying but ineffective.
Mech IG: While not yet out, it's going to be a wall of steel and if you don't have mobile multi-meltas, you are going to get crushed.
Foot IG: Gone. You CAN run it, but you should run the mass of tanks + infantry. The guard are very synergistic in the new codex and sticking to all-infantry will be a poor man's choice IMHO.
Mech Necrons: Doesn't exist.
Foot Necrons: Very one-dimensional sadly, but destroyer/immortal spam is still decent.
Foot Orks: Is it dead yet? If it's not a gunline, it's a waste of everybody's time as the AV14 armies will crush your face in. So, I'd probably say 'Foot Orks' are in fact 'Nob Biker' lists.
Biker Orks: Gee are 180 Ork armies dead yet? Yeah, you noob, I'm talking to you.
Mech Orks: Doesn't exist yet really, you CAN run a battlewagon heavy Ork army and I see this being the 'future' for Orks outside of Nob Biker armies, and my own special project I'm working on. ;)
Foot Marines: Should be lots of dreads and lots of tacticals backed by speeders for breaking key points/units in the other army.
Bike Marines: Totally different from any other army, it's a true 'Biker' list that is very competitive. So it gets included.
Mech Marines: One of the best lists, able to deal with just about anything anywhere. I prefer my version of it, it works very very well. Triple dread/tact rhino/pred/speeders are win.
Foot Tau: Unlike most other armies, Foot Tau are very powerful. Broadsides, Crisis Suits, Fire Warriors, Shas w/Marker Drones in Kroot w/Hounds. Holy cow. They can shoot down any mech army in one single turn. It's crazy.
Mech Tau: While I run a hybrid Tau army (because everybody runs a full mech tau list and I have enough on the table to run a forward detachment and a gunline detachment), a full mech Tau list based on 6xFW in a Fish o'Fury, Hammerheads, Piranhas...yeah, it's vulnerable to point blank meltashots; but will beat your face in if you can't get there and odds are you can't.
Foot Nids: The beast rush army, but honestly it's days are over until Nids can reliably kill tanks in CC without MC.
MC Nids: As there is no Mech Nids, this is 'it'. It's lost almost all ability to knock out vehicles at range, period. Time for the Hive Mind to morph MC into beasts or cough up some AP1 weapons that aren't psychic powers on shitty units. Lost a lot of power in 5th.
Foot WH: Not really viable anymore. It can be annoying but it's a one-off army that once people figure it out, it's going to get handled.
Mech WH: Out of the way, Peck! Yes, it's that good.
Obviously, 5E mech forces can deal with other 5E mech forces. lol
Mech forces can also deal with infantry by overrunning part of the gunline.
In the end, I think what you end up with is...what lists cannot deal effectively with 5E mech forces?
Chaos Demons, have only foot: Out.
Foot CSM: Out.
Any Demonhunters: Out.
Foot Dark Eldar: Out.
Foot Eldar: Out.
Foot Necrons: Out.
Foot Orks: Out.
Foot Nids: Out.
MC Nids: Out.
Foot WH: Out.
That leaves:
Mech CSM. This means you, Lash/Tri-Oblit, are out of the running in your typical foot build.
Mech Dark Eldar.
Mech Eldar.
Mech IG.
Biker Orks.
Mech Orks.
All Marines.
All Tau.
Mech WH.
No, I didn't forget the Space Puppies, the Dark Angels (we're really DARK! and now sing...Koom-ba-yaa), or the Black Templar. They are in the end, Marine lists and are run best as Mech marines although they CAN be run as Foot marines without much difficulty. The only exception is Dark Angels Ravenwing armies are NOT solid Biker armies and do not work in 5E.
So while I am not a tier person, and I think ANY of these armies can romp each other, here's my list...the long and short of it is, these are the lists that trump each other in descending order.
All Tau.
Mech Eldar (either).
All Marines (including BT mech, SW mech or drop, DA, and CSM).
Mech IG (new Codex).
Mech WH.
Orks.
Note how my list is different from that of BoLS:
Orks squarely at the bottom (they do not have the best unit in the game, btw--seer council trumps nob bikers).
Tau are first, which I'm sure will surprise a bunch of people. Eldar (normal and Dark) second. Marines third. Mech IG (new Codex) will be fourth. Sisters are fifth, and Orks come in last.
The other armies are in my view trumped completely by these lists and fall into the category of 'hope' lists.
I hope that explains my view on the current state of 40k.
It's been my local groups 'state' for well over a year.
Home Analysis My Views Warhammer 40k » My 40k Army Rankings
Wednesday, March 18, 2009
My 40k Army Rankings
By
Stelek
Labels: Analysis, My Views, Warhammer 40k
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37 comments:
Battle-wagon-heavy Mech Orks are pretty popular in Portland, Ore... there's three players at my local store that run some variation on the theme, and they work really well. KFF combined with durable vehicles is half-way broken, as it makes a lot of anti-mech lists a lot less effective against their primary target.
A new battlewagon list you are working on? Sounds interesting! Any chance of including us in your thoughts?
Well, we've seen your Tau hybrid list, what about 'best of' Tau 'mech and foot lists? Don't forget battle reports for each when you have the time.
Space Marine Bike Command Squads are better than nob bikers, you go first in combat and unlike nob bikers you can afford to not be in combat. I would love to match my bike list up against a nob bike list.
Thanks for your views on the subject. It's interesting to see how things are in different areas. I'm guessing that you have more strong Tau play (such as yourself) than we do and less strong Ork play (two of our best locals). We have good Eldar players, but the Seer Council build isn't so hot against Guard and the massed Lootas which are guaranteed to be present in any tournament.
@Skip: The BW list was one I posted on dakka a long time ago. I don't know if I put it here.
@Ryan F: lol well I can write the lists but I don't own all the models required for batreps. I'm sure I could borrow some. We'll see.
@Jwolf: I think it's all how you play the Seer Council, to be honest. I've had my best success against Guard and Orks. It's not about the play, it's about the list. Orks can be bottled up (tank shock), Bikers can't speed through difficult terrain nor jump over tanks or infantry lines, and lootas/guard gunlines (changing in the new book dramatically) have a hard time stopping the Seer Council. I guess my question is, on the turn the zoom forward occurs in a Ork vs Ork game...are the lootas LESS killy against the Nob Bikers than against the Seer Council? I note the seer council has a 3+/3+ save where the Bikers do not. Eldar have Doom and tank shock, Orks as a rule do not. Fire Dragons quickly cripple Nobs stuck sitting around after assaulting something, Orks have nothing like them. To me, Orks have very glaring weaknesses which can be exploited where the Eldar do not.
Andrew, I can't thank you enough this article/post was a pleasure to read (and much better than you first reaction on this issue).
@Jwolf, thanks for writing in and help us to fish this info from Andrew!
Overall I agree with Andrew's list more so than the BoLS list. But my play group has it's own flaws. -No serious/competitive ork players (we do have one player painting and building an army, so maybe soon).
-Few IG and the ones we do have are either A) New to the game or B) Never play any more.
So those two races I have the least experience against and therefore it's hard for me to comment on them.
But we do have Tau players and it does not surprise me. I've watched our strongest Tau player typically win almost every game he plays. Vs my Eldar I can usually tie him but rarely beat him (and I typically have less problems with SM, IG, DH or just about any other list).
I've seen new Tau players lose every game they play. We have a running joke in our group that Tau tends to be the race that a ton of new players gravitate towards (looks), but because they are not an easy race to play they tend to not stick to playing the game (as they get turned off to losing over and over).
@Andrew It's interesting you listed DA as the troop choice for Eldar foot. Do you not think Wraithguard are not competitive overall? I've been playing/running your Avatar, Wraithguard +Eldrad, x3 Wraithlord and Ranger list and it's pretty fun to play and so far I've had good success.
For mech eldar, yes I think DA are the better choices. I think a MC Eldar list does just fine with WG, and it is competitive but against Mech it has serious issues you can't ameliorate just because you have T6+ and 2+ saves everywhere.
Very useful and insightful work.
Whats your view on the rankings, do they hold true at different points levels i.e. at 1500 does the ranking change?
How about at 1750 and 2000?
I noticed that you say all Tau as numero uno but in several of your responses to Tau list submissions, you have stated that gunline's not so hot anymore and you also often reprimand people for not having their fire warriors in transports. Maybe you'll clear this up when you post your Foot and Mixed lists.
My mixed list is posted already, under my armies. Maybe you meant Mech tau?
Gunline as most people run it, isn't so hot anymore.
The 'new' Tau gunline imo IS 'hot'. lol Just nobody runs it.
I will post them sometime soon. :)
Yes, I was shocked that someone actually said Tau are number 1 in their book. I'm also very pleased with that, as I have been an avid Tau player for years. I also, admittedly, don't play enough to be considered a great player. My question to you is what makes Tau so superior in your eyes? I'm hoping your insight will make something "click" for me and make me a better player. I know you aren't a fan of GT's, but a buddy of mine and I are shooting to go to one this year. I think it would be a good experience and I want to field my beloved Tau. Any advice would be appreciated.
Correction:
I am a fan of the GT's Dave Taylor ran.
I am not so much of a fan of events that draw in the worst of the community and cater to them. Adepticon is big on my list there.
One of the reasons Tau are so good is that they can deal with all comers so well. When you build a good list with them it is inherently balanced and mech & mixed tau have great mobility.
They are however a very difficult army to run certainly not for new players if they want to succeed right away.
Wow, I totally disagree about the Tau. Yes, Tau can win in most of the missions, however in a tournament setting they have a hard time getting the full points.
Tau can be tailored to fight specific units but can really lose out against psychics, meltas, and mobile assault based armies.
Of course maybe I'm just not playing them well. I'd like to see a "Best of" 1750 or 1850 list for Tau and give it a shot, because I really like them.
[quote]Mech WH: Out of the way, Peck! Yes, it's that good.[/quote]
Everybody loves a good Willow Quote! :D
Stelek, thanks for this run down, I found it quite enlightening considering my total lack of games in 5E recently (which sucks balls!) and an interesting contrast to some views like that of BoLS. The comments about ork hoard lists and the obvious derision behind the comments made me laugh and I'd like to see sucha hoard get stomped as I've not had the pleasure yet.
That said, what do you think of Imperial/Inquisitor hybrid lists such as a Marine supported by assassin/inquisitor list and how they'd fair?
Cheers mate and have a good day,
Auretious Taak.
As a newbie in Warhammer Fantasy, I cannot wait to read your version of this list for our other GW favourite game! =D
Go, man, write it, pleassseeeee!!!!!!! =')
Suprised you claim Tau are number 1 when Eldar are winning most of the GT's, especially the UK one.
I agree with Tau being a very unforgiving army but I don't see them winning high level tournaments. And when I mean tournaments I am on about the 1500pts ones here in England.
Come to think about it this is one of the biggest problems, America get's to have 1750 points lists where they pretty much get everything they want while we have to struggle with 1500 making tings a lot more difficult.
As soon as the GW UK Eldar players stop casting fortune and super speeding to 6" assault range of the entire enemy army, I'm sure they won't be as invincible.
i.e. Stop cheating you limey bastards, and you won't be so awesome.
Oh and people running shitty Tau with 20-30 FW and TL flamer crisis suit units doesn't fucking help either. What do I know.
This could be true in many cases, but you must rememebr a lot of players from around the world go to teh UKTG and surely some of them would be Tau players and yet they don't win it.
So either the players (lists included) or the army is really bad and just can't compete with the other armies anymore. On warseer a lot of pepople rank them as bottom tier.
I myself play tau but with what we have atm and with only 1500pts to spend I don't think it's enough to get the number 1 spot.
Are mech DE still 2nd place tied with mech eldar in your opinion Stelek?
I've found the new IG very difficult to win against, large amounts of chimeras/vendettas are difficult to kill with only dark lances=/. And it can be tough trying to outrange a lot of 48" weapons.
It's hard to know whether Tau should be definitively ranked #1, but with the right list and the tactical acumen to run it, Tau must surely be considered a "top-tier", "competitive" army.
I love Fire Warriors much as the next guy (and in most games I play I run 2-3 full units in devilfish, just 'cause), but clearly they aren't the best unit in the 'dex. Definitely not the value that Kroot/Hound units are. Anybody that depends on FWs to win the Troop battle is going to lose.
But I think a bigger issue is that most Tau players I talk to online have a very low opinion of the Piranha. This unit is absolutely stunning! And it seems to be impossible to convince people rationally how freaking awesome this little paper airplane really is. Until people learn to run with several Piranha in their lists, I don't know that there will be any hope for them.
Alternate crisis suit builds I'm a lot more lenient on. Fireknives are clearly the most efficient, but I can often get by with deathrains in a not-too-seriously-competitive environment if I want to splurge on "fluffiness" (e.g., those damned Fire Warriors I love so much). And once you accept the occasional deathrain suit, it isn't a big jump to putting flamers on them for the final hardpoint (hey, it's cheap at least!) ... or even going TL flamer/missile pod just for yuks.
But Kroot and Piranha. Unless those are used in good numbers under a sure hand, I can see why many people wouldn't consider Tau very strong.
Franky, the 1500 pt target for Tau is easy to hit if you want a killer list! Just off the top of my head, I bet this would do just fine:
Shas'el, plasma rifle, missile pod, targeting array, HW multi-tracker [97 pts]
3 XV8 Crisis, plasma rifle, missile pod, multi-tracker, team leader w/bonding knife [196 pts]
3 XV8 Crisis, plasma rifle, missile pod, multi-tracker, team leader w/bonding knife [196 pts]
6 Fire Warriors [60 pts]
10 Kroot, 5 Kroot Hounds [100 pts]
10 Kroot, 5 Kroot Hounds [100 pts]
8 Pathfinders, Shas'ui, bonding knife [111 pts]
+ Devilfish, smart missile system, targeting array, multi-tracker, disruption pods [125 pts]
Piranha, fusion blaster, targeting array, disruption pods [75 pts]
Piranha, fusion blaster, targeting array, disruption pods [75 pts]
2 XV88 Broadsides, team leader with bonding knife, 2 shield drones [200 pts]
Hammerhead, railgun, burst cannons, multi-tracker, disruption pods [165 pts]
1500 pts on the nose. I'm sure it can be even further optimized, but as-is it's miles better than almost every other Tau list I see.
Yep. IG should be terrified of dark lance spam. 12-18 shots a turn, plus the 9 plasma cannons...makes for a very unhappy IG player.
Damon: I have probably the most kroot and paper airplanes in my army at 2000 points.
36 and 4, respectively.
Can someone please inform me why fire warriors are crap?
I think for 10pts you get a good deal, they will be wounding most things on 3's, have longer range and provide a semi decent fire base if backed up with kroot to take the charge.
The only thing I see kroot good for are a unit of 10 to take the home objective if 6 fire warriors are killed or as a speed bump. And their guns are standard bolters.
Unless I am seriously missign something?
@Anon: I would say you are seriously missing something! Trying to set up a gunline with Fire Warriors is a losing proposition. Who cares if you have a 30" range when opponents like IG, Marines, Eldar, even ORKs (!!) can easily outshoot you point for point either at that range or just 6" in at 24". And how do you keep people outside of 24"? Do you really have the points to afford spamming the table with pulse rifles? Battlesuits and skimmers don't come cheap, last I checked. Try winning a game without those in your arsenal!
It's not that hard to kill a handful of FWs at range and make them run off the table. Easy KPs or an easy way to guarantee a result no worse than a draw in objectives games if that gunline is your list's bread and butter unit. Either result is WIN for your opponent.
Compare those 10 pt FWs to the lowly "speedbump" 7 pt Kroot ... and 6 pt Kroot Hound. You can buy a bucketload of Kroot and Hounds for dirt cheap. Nice big units that can INFILTRATE, giving you control over deployment, and therefor an edge in the early tactical game. This ability alone earns them a spot in an army that can't stand enemies getting up close and personal. Everything else about them is gravy. Mostly, it's very tasty gravy, though, so you should learn to appreciate its taste.
There should never be a time where your Kroot receive a charge. Take that unit of 10 Kroot + 5 Hounds I put in the 1500 pt list above. How many attacks does that unit generate on the charge? At what strength?
Granted, Kroot are not in the top tier of 40K assault units. But they do crush Orks in a most amusing fashion. And they can take down Marine combat squads. They'll do a number on IG.
That's just assuming you're using them entirely unsupported, without any other help. But what Tau commander lets his Kroot (or his lowly FWs) do the heavy lifting? What, are you leaving your battlesuits and amazing skimmer technology at home? Your battlesuits and skimmers are responsible for doing most of the actual killing. Your Kroot and Devilfish (and Piranhas) are responsible for controlling enemy movement so those battlesuits and railguns can do the dirty work -- in safey -- of smashing apart enemy mech elements and then the exposed infantry.
Kroot help out with that funneling, too and make for a nice coup-de-grace unit.
FWs should just hang out in a Devilfish until they absolutely have to disembark. If, like me, you can't help yourself and simply must take big units of them, an occasional fish of fury can come in handy.
But in neither case are your Tau Troops a primary offensive force. They're there to make the job of the rest of your army easier to accomplish. FWs are useful really only because they can ride in a devilfish. But that's so much more expensive than Kroot, and Kroot bring so much more to the table....
Pot? The kettle called. Said you're black?
Entertaining as ever, Ork players.
I wonder if people realize yet that it is you, the majority of shitty players running Orks, that face nothing but shit players?
Oh snap, the truth.
Anon said: "<span>Are mech DE still 2nd place tied with mech eldar in your opinion Stelek? "</span>
My oath they are, mate...
At a recent large (for us) Sydney event (~50 players) I ran the following 1200pt Dark Eldar army. I slipped up, forgetting this was 1200points (My rule of thumb is for a softer build to score rreasonable comp, so I'd normally only have 1 Ravager, 1 wych squad, and lead by a Dracon at this level, instead I took the amount I'd normally deem appropriate for 1500-1750, in fact when I played a coupole of weks later in a 1750pt event I basically expanded by just adding 2 full raider squads and filling up the other choices..
Instead I fielded:
Archon, Agoniser, Pistol, SF, CDs Plasma Grenades
8 Wyches, WW/PGs, 2 Blaster, Succubus w Agoniser, Raider with Dark Lance, Slave Snares, Horrofex, Night Shield
9 warriors, SC, Bl, Sybarite Agoniser, Raider with Dark Lance, Horrofex, Night Shield
9 warriors, SC, Bl, Sybarite Agoniser, Raider with Dark Lance, Horrofex, Night Shield
8 warriors, Dark Lance, Raider with Dark Lance, Horrofex, Night Shield
6 warriors, Bl, Raider with Dark Lance, Horrofex, Night Shield
Ravager, 3 Disintegrators, Night Shield
Ravager, 3 Disintegrators, Night Shield
Due to family illness the T.O. was unable to mark army composition, and so the event defaulted to a no-comp tourney, unusual for us.
I was also held up on the first day so missed out on the first round, which turned out to be the ultimate submarine tactic as over the next 10 games I won 9 of them and won the event when I tied with a fantastically painted Daemon army - fortuantly I literally tabled him in 3 turns (are you listening Auriteous Taak? :wink: ) and so won on a count-back. :)
Now sure, I've been playing Dark Eldar for a long time - they are a little tricky to get to terms with, but this list is incredibly powerful. It outshoots many shooty armys and can out assault many assault armies... And often has more manouverability than other mobile armies... It is both extremely potent and a heap of fun to field!
FWIW, after I won the event, the gossip was that my army "probably deserved 2/5 for army composition." Hmm, amazing, a full DE Boat army ran in a 1750 tourney a few months and scored close to 4/5.. who says peer comp is fickle, eh? :)
Needless to say I didn't feel at all morally obligated to give the prizes back and in reality my co-competitiors where of course gracious in congratulating me...
But boy oh boy, it sure does vindicate your position about Peer Composition!
Part ii - hmm, there's a characgter limit...
(Please scroll down to my initial reply, this is the second half)
----
And maybe in light of your thoughts putting Mech Dark Eldar in #2 spot they might have been right, eh?
Funny thing is, when I expanded to 1750 for a "Beerhammer" tournament in Canberra a few weeks later, I actually de clawed the army significantly - throwing out the Archon and fielding Kruellagh the Vile as my HQ:
Kruellagh the Vile
Dracon Agoniser, Pistol, PGs
10 Wyches, WW/PG, 2 Bl, Succ Agr, Raider with Dark Lance, Horrofex, Night Shield
9 warriors, SC,Shredder, SybaritePoison Blades, Xenospasm, Rifle , Raider with Dark Lance, Horrofex, Night Shield
9 warriors, SC, Bl, Sybarite Agoniser, Raider with Dark Lance, Horrofex, Night Shield
9 warriors, SC, Bl, Sybarite Agoniser, Raider with Dark Lance, Horrofex, Night Shield
10 warriors, SC, Bl, Raider with Dark Lance, Horrofex, Night Shield
10 warriors, Dark Lance, Blaster, Raider with Dark Lance, Horrofex, Night Shield
8 warriors, Bl, Raider with Dark Lance, Horrofex, Night Shield
Ravager, 3 Disintegrators, Night Shield
Ravager, 3 Disintegrators, Night Shield
Ah, the vagaries of composition scoring - I scored the second lowest comp score for that list - I should have taken the stronger version - as usual, people just have no friggin idea when it comes to scoring DE Comp. They just see me fielding nothing but boats and scream cheese, necer mind I can build a more efficient army using a couple of foot warrior units for DLs with room for asquad of Warp Beasts or something...
Playing Dark Eldar often tgests my resolve about army composition. I see the hardest builds scoring high comp scores at other events, and I score half that for fielding much softer armies.. yeah, peer comp definitely sux!
Preaching to the converted, I know, Ghod it feels good
I am surprised to see you rating Tau so high, so early in the piece. Around here theywere regarded as useless in 5th (maybe worse than Necrons) but then a couple of Veterans took up a "Tau Challenge" - taking them to a couple of events and winning the tourney. I think only now have others started using Pathfinders properly - nerfing cover saves is a huge thing in fifth ed...
SO while I would have initially completely disagreed with your assessment, I am less sure of that now, after all Tau have the ability to put out an astonishing amount of decent strength dfirepower (even across 24" separation!). I wonder if in another 6 months or so if I won't be agreeing with you and putting Tau so high.
BTW, those same vets are now doing the Necron challenge, trying to win a tourney with even those!
I hope I didnt go too far off track?
Tau vs Nob Biker armies? Got an idiot-proof guide for pasting Nobz?
MagicJuggler: Stick Kroot in front, shoot the crap out of them. Move vehicles in front, shoot the crap out of them.
Works on all armies focused on high value rocks.
*whew* Glad I'm not raving insane then...Only issue is KP-denial missions (Durr, 4/5 KP at 2000 pts or so) which is derp.
i noticed mech IG is under mech marines ? IG seem to kick the crap out of everything.. i've not seen many marine lists ghat can handle IG
Also...Mech CSM is rated ABOVE IG that can't possibly be right....can it? =-X
Marines can handle them fine.
Mech CSM was rated above the OLD ig codex. Note the date on this post...
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