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Can't pull my son out of school to fly out for the January event. Nuts. I am beginning to explore the 'Vassal' web engine, so maybe someday you will be able to include players at your event from 100's of miles away!
Still can't decide how to build a marine army to deal with Nob Bikers. I"m not sure the double librarian 40 sister army actually has enough firepower to take down a unit of Nob Bikers, although my fear of loota's has abated somewhat. I know that you prefer your shooty assault cannon black templars to your landraider assault squad black templars, but I think the close combat version would actually math out better than the assault cannon version against Nob Bikers. I have to review the discussions on the blog spot, as I think you have also reviewed multi-based vindicator, scout horde, and even some biker based marine armies which might play reasonably against the Hell's Angels Ork variation.
Best wishes,
Mike Guth
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Howdy Mike!
I don't think much of Vassal, I'm waiting for GW to put an end to it. Making a computer based version of Warhammer 40K would probably totally kill the hobby. lol Sorry!
Lots of armies can take on the Hell's Angels. IMHO, it's experience doing so that will help make them better. :)
Against Nob Bikers, my Black Templar army is devastating.
Here's why:
In close combat, I have 2 attacks with re-rolls to hit. 3 when I charge them.
We both have 5+ invulnerable saves.
They have 3 attacks (4 when they charge) and should hit on 3+.
I'll lose my squad of 5. I should cripple the Nob Biker squad as all of my PF hits that get past the 5+ save drop a Nob.
He will have a Warboss and whatever I didn't kill left, plus possibly another Nob Biker squad.
I will gladly trade a terminator squad to rip the heart out of these squads, as that is what they do. I have 5 versus his 2.
The funny thing is, if even 1 terminator on my side lives...I usually win the combat. Why? I did more wounds! lol
All I need to do is kill 5 nobs, which isn't difficult at all--the average is 5 dead.
10 attacks, 5 hit, 2.5 reroll hits, 6.5 wounds, 4.5 die. Round up slightly and you usually see 5 nobs dead.
I win by 5. Guess who's running away if I survive the onslaught? Doesn't happen often, but it does happen and it is funny. ;)
Home Analysis Army Lists Black Templar Orks Warhammer 40k » My BT vs Nob Bikers
Thursday, January 01, 2009
My BT vs Nob Bikers
By
Stelek
Labels: Analysis, Army Lists, Black Templar, Orks, Warhammer 40k
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7 comments:
Not sure if my last comment got through. The tournmanet Nob Biker/Warboss squads that I've seen usually have 5 or 6 Nobs armed with Big Choppas and only 4 or 5 armed with Power Klaws.
Unless I've missed something, the Big Choppas will hit before the Terminator Power Fists and should cause 2-3 casualties. So, you are trading 5 terminators for only 1-2 Nob Bikers. The Nob Bikers get increased weapons skill from the Waagh Banner, +2 strength from the Big Choppa.
Sisters of Battle two handed chainswords strike last like Power Fists, but I don't see a similar rule for the Big Choppa.
MIke Guth
Mike Guth,
I believe you did your math wrong, on average, the big choppa orks will probably take down 1-2 terminators. In which case he's trading 5 terminators for 4-5 nobs.
Big question is whether I have missed a rule which would let Terminator Power Fists strike with anything other than Initiative 1. I don't think so. Second question is whether Ork Big Choppas strike with I3, or I1. Again, I think it is I3, before Terminator PF.
The math, 5 Nob bikers with BC, 4 attacks each=20 attacks. WS=4+1 for Waagh Banner, means 5vs4, hit on 3's so 13 hits. Strength is 4+2for choppa+1for furious charge =7. Strength 7vsT4 for terminators hits on 2+, so 11 hits. Save on 2+, you're going to have 1 or 2 dead terminators before you strike back (ps, don't use the little GW dice or you'll have 5 dead terminators....)
Back at the Nobs, you now have only 3 terminators 6 pf attacks hitting on 4 with reroll for BT. Assume 5 get through. Strength 8vs.4, miss on ones, assume all get through. 5+ invulnerable save, you still are only going to kill 3-4 Nobs, 3 more likely because we assumed all the hits wounded.
My math shows you trade 5 terminators inc. 2 autocannon for 3 Nobs (remember, the Nob Bikers still had 5 PK attacks to follow). That's 260 points for about 180-200 points of Nobs. Fail....
Thing is Mike, I have 25 Terminators. Do I get to countercharge the Nobs? Shoot them at all? I haven't had a problem killing double or single Nob Biker squads. They can't take the countercharges.
I'm inclined to take your word, but I can see it taking practice because the math is not definitively in the BT's favor.
Alas, the Terminator Squads in BT don't appear to be able to buy the Counter-attack upgrade.
I haven't included the effect of having a Castellan either. A charge on the next turn against the bikes is likely to be good I'll admit. You could have a relic also which could be nasty....
So, have to try it with my 'blue templars'-old ultramarines kitted out for 2 AC per squad.....
Oh it does, dealing with any sledgehammer unit takes practice.
Best defense against the super nob rush?
Place two units together. They can charge both, and die. They can charge one and kill it, then die to the countercharge.
Haven't figured out a way around that either.
Don't forget nob bikers have quite a bit of firepower they can throw down, but against small elite units like 5 man terminator squads...it doesn't do much since they're dead already.
There are drawbacks to running sledgehammer units, you know.
Don't forget that killing on nob with a powerfist equals 2 wounds towards combat res. So if he punches out 2-3 Nobs, his combat res is -4 or -6. So unless the Nob bikers punch out the entire unit...Stelek will win on Combat res.
Capt K
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