Chris Gohlinghorst posted this on the GW Community forum:
Here are the final words on the ‘Ard Boyz event.
1) The standings as reported are final.
2) Rules judges are there to arbitrate the event and their calls are final, right or wrong. If one does not understand the basis for the ruling, it is reasonable at the time to ask the judge to point out in a rulebook, FAQ or errata the source for their decision. If you do not understand the basis for the ruling, it is reasonable at the time to ask the judge to confer with the judging team (if there is one more than one rules judge) about their decision. If you disagree with the ruling it is reasonable at the event to confer with the judge after the game for more insight into their decision.
It is reasonable to assume that a rules judge is making best efforts to bring about the best answer.
It is unreasonable to assume that a rules judge will get every call correct every time given the numerous variables presented to them.
It is unreasonable to ask or call for a change of the game’s outcome after the game or tournament is over based on a rules question that occurred during the game.
3) It is unreasonable to presume the mind, thoughts, and motivations of players in a game that one was not present to see. Increasing the size of the sampling of individuals who were not present to witness the game leverages no more credibility to an argument.
4) Relying on rampant speculation and hearsay as a basis for creating an argument, introducing false dichotomies, tautologies, and arguments from final consequences into that thread will not be tolerated on these boards (there are plenty of other places on the internet that one can go fill threads with logical fallacies in order to support their premises).
This thread is locked to prevent further chicanery as it is merely contributing to divisive commentary and arguments carried over from other websites.
A few other quotes:
Jerry Biolchini posted:
But, Stelek. You are wrong. The hobby and this site are ABOUT CLUBS AND INDIVIDUALS.
And...
Until then I don't want to read personal diatribe in a hobby that is supposed to be fun.
Then an old favorite, GBF, posted:
Stelek this is another one of your 'crusades' that has made you unpopular elsewhere because of how you choose to go about it.
My reply to Chris:
Chris, when you have to write a story to make everyone understand Judges make mistakes and that cheaters on your circuit get away with it, well...thanks for the story but we already knew that.
We needed action, some kind of assurance that this recurring event will no longer recur. Tournament attendance can I guess drop through the floor until every locale you visit refuses to come play because you don't address these issues immediately.
It's called bad PR. You just ate a whole bunch of it, and you didn't need to.
What's the answer on the dice cheating? Is that still good to go? Shall I start cooking my dice now?
My reply to Jerry:
I don't know if you're in a fantasy land, or what...but the hobby is definitely not about clubs. It should not be about 'you are with the cheats in the club, or you aren't'. The hobby is about individuals, which is what I was inferring when I said it isn't about clubs.
Just because 10 guys show up every tournament and wear the same shirt, out of 150 guys, does not make this a 'club' hobby. Sorry man, it just isn't so.
I apologize for speaking my mind, mein herr. I will wear my yellow star as you deem fit.
My reply to GBF:
When aren't you negative anti-Stelek? If I said I'm staying on solid ground, I think you'd jump off the nearest bridge just to 'show that Stelek up'. Who has the crusade, again?
When you say elsewhere and unpopular, do you mean Dakka? Land of let's all play together nicely, but you can't talk about cheaters here?
Here he is, in all his 'club' glory.
Gareth 'I can cheat because the rules judge said I could so I did' Hunt
He's a cheater.
Don't play with cheaters.
Want an example of who is not a cheat, and who you DO want to play?
The epitomy of the hobbyist--the individual we should all aspire to be when playing fairly with others in a tournament.
Dave Taylor
(Dave is on the left. Sorry unknown guy on the right! lol)
Yeah, nuff said, I think, on this.
It's funny how cheating in a tournament is allowed, but cheating with a model that isn't your own painted fig--now THAT is unacceptable.
Yes, I remember last year when someone was stripped of their trophy for saying they painted a model they did not.
Integrity of the hobby seems to have a fine line drawn around it.
A curvy, squiggly line.
Home My Views Warhammer 40k » Update: Cheating
Friday, November 21, 2008
Update: Cheating
By
Stelek
Labels: My Views, Warhammer 40k
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20 comments:
Sounds like GW is taking the stance that a judge DID rule that the Demon player could ignore the biggest rule in the codex. I can understand a judge making a mistake, but a mistake that totally changes the way a army plays seems ludicrous.
Did you notice how the guy said he brought the right base size for his Bloodcrushers and asked his opponent if he had to use them? Even if he did ask, which his opponent said he did not, it's like he's trying to pressure the other player into letting him violate the rules. If you have the right base size, play the right base size!
Dammit, are those wallet chains coming back again? Someone tell GBF that wearing sunglasses inside is never cool... unless you're a tool.
That's...disappointing.
I do not see what you are so upset at, or why you are posting everywhere about cheating. There is a contradiction between the rulebook and the codex, and both players took the most favorable interpretation of the rule. They were at an impasse and a judge was called over and he had to make a decision on the spot, and he unfortunately made the wrong call.
This happens, but does it rise to the level of cheating? I don’t think so.
At the LAGT in 2005 I had a judge make the wrong call and it cost me the game. Was my opponent cheating because he interpreted the rules differently than I did? No. Was the judge at fault for making a tough ruling on a complex rules issue on the spot at fault? I don’t hold him responsible. There are a lot of gray areas in the rules, and situations where you have contradictory rules and we all have to deal with the results.
As far as dice cheating goes, I have never heard of any of that going on. I wrote about how dice with logo’s for the “6”s seem to roll more “6” than regular dice and that is about it. I have never seen anyone roll the big dice that you have in your video, or people just dropping them instead of rolling them. The video is of a guy that has spent years practicing dice manipulation, and I do not think that any 40ker are that committed to cheating to put in the hours required to develop the skill needed to roll what they want.
Well, if it's not cheating - whatever do you call "I know the right way to do it but I used the Judge's wrong ruling" ?
'Cuz that's what I personally am peeved about.
^
Well, that is just plain wrong. There is no contradiction between Dawn of War (the rule book) and Daemonic Assault (the codex).
Cheating - no. Being an idiot - YES. There is a difference. I don't even play Daemons and know the rules for deployment.
You would think someone who has bought and painted an army would at least have a basic understanding of how the army works.
- Mez
Mez. Is it cheating. He said (and in 2 previous games, played his army correctly) he cheated because a judge let him. He was not 'confused'. He put up a false dichotomy, the judge bought it, and his opponent sucked it up as he'd never played against Demons before, apparently. So he didn't know how much bullshit it was.
Everyone else does.
Dang...someone didn't get their Wheaties cuz there is no need for this angst. I don't think we met before cuz I don't go to GTs...been to a couple but not in 5 years or so. If the GT is the basis of your hobby experience then sorry. Still there is a chance we have met but I don't know your real name, so unless proven otherwise...besides if we met you wouldn't like me much. I would be cheering you on as you pounded my army. I just enjoy playing...win or lose.
Just dial down the hostility. You made the Hitler reference....reread your angst driven post on your own blog in response to mine from the GW Community Site.
So you are dragging me in to the cheating silliness, ok fair enough as long as you portray me accurately. I don't know what happened at that tournament. Ard Boyz is a mistake and a poor event idea...it has potential but its poorly executed. I just choose to be more constructive in how I do it. Like joining the Community Team. Its compounded even more by not being run by the GW people that know how to run events. Also please respect me as I haven't judged you or anyone else either way. Still nothing justifies the anger, hate, and venom in your posts over a hobby. I get passion, but there are more constructive ways to do it. What i did was merely point out a misconception that the hobby isn't about clubs...it is. I never mentioned cheating in there...you did. I still don't understand your premise that connects the two. Still I know my facts.
All this has done is proven my point that tournaments, as a sole focus of the hobby, are detrimental to the hobby. Big Prizes Bring Big Tools. Get a big prize and tag lines that inspire beating face and what do you expect? Still I can see how tournaments are fun...I partake once in a while and my club runs a few once and again.
Using mainstream events as a sole basis of an opinion is illogical, plus I have played in many European events as my job takes me there often....so the comparison is not the same....at all. How many local events go off without mention by GW? Are GW or internet announced events the only ones that are "official"? Just because they don't come to your attention or the attention of GW does not mean they are not valid or ongoing. I suggest you step outside your box bit.
Still you are the one comparing clubs, teams, to cheating. I merely pointed out that the hobby is about clubs and people. Nothing more nothing less.
In reply to Jerry -
And people outright cheating/misleading people in the hobby is ok by you? So long as the people have fun while doing so? Heck, we are using the tournament as a example where such dishonesty got REWARDED.
That's not the kind of hobby I want to be part of.
I don't quite grasp any of your comment, Jerry.
Where did I mention Hitler? Nazis? I did a text search of the whole site, and don't see it. Don't remember it either.
Who is being hostile? You're saying the game is about clubs, I disagree since that is a euro phenomenon not a US one. I've been to Europe too, so I do know. Just because you play with the haawgs club is pretty meaningless, they are the exception not the rule here in the US. Few players claim membership in a club here in the states. So stop saying the community is all about clubs, when it isn't.
There are lots of events outside of the GT circuit, or GW tournaments period. Is there a point you were trying to make, other than giving me a red herring?
Oh right, I run a lot of those tournaments and am highly critical of the GT system--but I'm stuck inside my box apparently for actually saying something about blatant cheating.
I'm not comparing clubs to cheating, if that is how I come across...well, I surely am not saying clubs=cheaters. I am saying one club = cheaters. Also big tools.
I don't know how to break it to you, but the prize support at GT's is pathetic--I can get about triple the #1 prize for what I spend on the trip. Maybe part of why you don't go to GT's anymore is your predisposition to them, which seems apparent to me.
You can hide in a club atmosphere and call down the thunder on all the 'lesser' players who don't 'get' the hobby. I'm not impressed. The hobby in the US is, once again, not club-centric and never will be. Sorry to have to burst your bubble on that one, but it's about time you had it burst.
No one is disrespecting you here, Jerry. I'm allowed to disagree with you. And here, there's no one to stop me from doing so. I also won't stop you from saying what you want to.
I don't know about you, but joining the community event team is like going to the dark side. It seems like a good idea at first, then...it isn't. I prefer to stand alone. Kudos to you for doing what you think is best. Since you haven't been to a GT in 5 years, I can only take your contribution to the community with a grain of salt.
I have no fear (angst). I do have anger. There is no venom in calling someone a cheating douchebag. Since when do cheaters get the same PC and forced respect, as if they hadn't violated society's rules in the first place? The very ones that insist on conformity and forced respect? Screw that noise.
Oh and I have more fun playing with the locals than I've ever had at a GT. They don't suck.
I've been going to GT's for...12 years now? My real name isn't hard to find out. Not that I'd expect you to remember me from so many years ago. /shrug/
We seem to be arguing different points about entirely different topics.
I admit, I am not a huge fan of Stelek. I don't see how this is anything but total cheating, and Games Workshop failing to stop it or even address it. Name calling Stelek for daring to speak up, that's low even for you Chris.
One club has a cheater in their midst. They know it. We know it. GW knows it. What is GW going to do about it? Nothing? I'm going to cheat next year then. I'll sue if you call me on it.
Bad call? I like this. My drop pods do not have to roll for scatter. In fact, they can tank shock you and move you out of the way just like a Monolith. That's what the judge said, so it's legal?
We had cheater last year used loaded dice. He was found and told no return. Why GW in US allow this?
Nothing says deceit like a cheater in your club. WC wins many tournaments, how many through cheating? They condone it by defending the cheater. GW won't do anything about this, you must know this.
Come on Stellie, stop bitching. GW allows idiots to run their company, their ard boyz events, and allows them to cheat and prosper. When will you learn they don't care? They are busy in their ivory tower and do not have time for you or your concerns.
This struck me. Blackmoor said and I quote "I do not see what you are so upset at, or why you are posting everywhere about cheating. There is a contradiction between the rulebook and the codex, and both players took the most favorable interpretation of the rule. They were at an impasse and a judge was called over and he had to make a decision on the spot, and he unfortunately made the wrong call."
Stelek, are you posting somewhere besides the official feedback forum and your own blog?
Blackmoor, Stelek has laid out the rules. It seems everyone understands it but you and the cheater in question. Oh let us not forget the never-identified judge. How many judges are there that it is so hard to identify them?
Stelek calls bull on this play. I wonder why Blackmoor calling the way the Daemon Army plays as needing interpretation?
If I say no, does that mean you think I want to have sex with you? Honestly boys.
I wonder why Dave has not said anything himself. He needs to address this as the happy face of GW events. Not have Chris do it for him. Come on Dave!
Hey does anyone here know if there is going to be another ard Boyz tournament this year again? It's time for some more smack down. Stelek are you planning to play?
Guisha Modie
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